Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#321

Post by maxheadroom » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #100

ThJ wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these…

I’m from Sweden, same system. I’d MUCH rather have this than the alternative.

På riktigt! :)

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#322

Post by hestipod » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #314

netsharc wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good explanation on meritocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ TL;DW: if you believe the crap that hard work will make you successful (discounting luck), than you'd have to believe the opposite is true: that poor people are lazy.

Only if you discount luck completely. There are degrees of bad luck otherwise that nobody can surmount. As a simple example, do you consider a person bedridden due to a sickness lazy?

I've found the sort of people who deny my experience, who blame me, ALWAYS discount how much luck has played in their own life and success. They all believe its entirely due to their effort and deserving. I used to try and convince them, now each time they respond this way it just takes one more notch out of my hope belt and there aren't many notches left.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#323

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #292

copenja wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most employer sponsored healthcare plans in the US have a maximum out of pocket the patient can be charged per year. The average cost for someone with cancer and an employer sponsored plan in the US is around $6000 per year. That's $500 a month. https://www.cheatsheet.com/health-fitness/how-much-you-can-r... Both my parents had cancer and survived in US, so I do know from first hand experience. They did not get ruine…

>Most employer sponsored healthcare plans in the US have a maximum out of pocket the patient can be charged per year. Yeah, but that's irrelevant if you have to use an out of network provider in an emergency situation, or if you need a treatment that your insurance provider refuses to cover.

The lack of global insurance policy for actual emergencies is a crime of this insurance system you have in the US.

This is where the government is supposed to step in. Nobody is in any position to predict where they will be taken for emergency care, and copays for random amounts is essentially ransom.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#324

Post by simonh » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #244

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though:…

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

I come at this from a slightly different angle. I’m not a socialist, I’m a true believing dyed in the will capitalist, but still believe a robust social safety net including single payer health care is essential infrastructure for a healthy nation.

I cane to this fur the same reasons many other conservatives like me did in the UK in the inter-war years. To have a prosperous society we need to be able to defend ourselves effectively, and have a healthy educated work force that is fit for purpose. The fact is, centrally administered health care through national insurance, state education and a professional military are three essential pillars of a stable, safe and prosperous nation.

The US gets by simply by being huge and wealthy. Britain hasn’t got those advantages so we can’t scrape by as a society with cobbled together patch provision for these essentials. The world wars weeny a distant foreign adventure, they were existential crises that brought us to the brink. The same applies to the rest of Europe.

I hope the US can learn that lesson without going through such a dire experience.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#325

Post by CalRobert » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

ckris wrote: post #234

maxheadroom wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible? Most of the more restrictive EU countries (e.g.: UK, Ireland, etc.) have barriers to getting immigration stamps, which the most oft way of immigration is through employment and the most labour available to foreigners is either tech or medicine. For example, in Sweden, a position must be listed as a highly qualified s…

> You're not getting an employment contract, for example, to work in Burger King in Stockholm because it wouldn't pass the labour market needs test. As far as I know there isn't any labour market test in Sweden anymore. The unions only gets to comment on whether the contract is similar to that of the collective agreement for the sector. http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2013/soc...

Are you saying a poor American can go work at Burger King in Sweden? That's revelatory.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#326

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #315

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers will see my point, I don't need to get into the weeds with you like this over minor details.

At least one reader certainly doesn't. You're asking everybody for evidence that could stand up even in court while you respond with anecdotal data and personal experience based on biased, incomplete, or generic data. "I live and work in rural US and suddenly I can afford a lot more than I could if I had one of those jobs I found after an internet search for London" does not pass the bar you expect other people's evi…

To make this anecdote into a data point the GP should post his whole financial history. E.g. how much they made and spent. What do they own and then we can also check what can they buy.

For example, can he buy a typical hip surgery, which over time is likely? CLL treatments? Medical transport should it be necessary? Hire a nurse? Get a broken limb in a cast?

... Not lose a job because they cannot get to it for a month because of bum leg?

Cost of each of these can be actually checked ahead of time, for UK and for US. Including a split between in network vs out network in the US.

If people are dying, we can count deaths due to causes that would be preventable in UK and in the US, as well as cost in each case.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#327

Post by gizmo686 » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #18

It's a complicated issue.. but every person or family that makes a level up transition (without rent-seeking) like. poor -> middle middle -> upper upper -> rich/millionaire millionaire -> billionaire have my respect.

I think "upper" comes after millionaire. Someone in the middle class should be a millionaire by the time they retire.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#328

Post by hcurtiss » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #260

briandear wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

"America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined." Source? "it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats [1]" Where is the [1] source? " I’m sorry for people who have bad luck, but where is their family? Their church? Their local community? How is someone outside of my community or family circle my problem?" Isn't this the argument here…

I don't have that guy's exact statistic, but here's a page that supports the immigration argument. The US lets a lot of people in from all over the world. Also note those numbers for Germany include people from other EU countries. https://immigrationlawyerslosangeles.com/immigration-law/imm...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#329

Post by blaser-waffle » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

atq2119 wrote: post #188

mschuster91 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core problem at hand is FPTP and the Electoral College. The presidential election is decided in the swing states and with the current system the centrist Democrats do have a point - even if the hardcore Democrat states love Sanders or Warren, their landslide victories in these states won't help anything if all the swing states go Republican. America needs two periods with Democrats: the first one won with/by cent…

The US had the period of centrist Democrats with Obama, yet none of the things you mention happened.

Canada currently has one with Trudeau, and reforming FPTP was one of his explicit goals -- didn't happen. Probably not going to.

We got legal weed though, so there's that.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-electoral-reform-ja...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#330

Post by fatbird » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

cglace wrote: post #317

fatbird wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up Typhoid Mary [0]. We don't licence dish washers because running a restaurant requires adhering to a large body of commercial food safety law that requires the restaurant owner/operator to maintain standards of hygiene. If freelance dish washing were a thing, we probably would licence them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

Having been a microbiologist in a past life I'm very familiar with Typhoid Mary. I do however think you are attacking a straw man. "Under Board of Cosmetology regulations, an individual “must complete not less than 300 hours of instruction on the theory and practice of shampooing” at an approved school. That instruction includes how to answer the phone, order products, information about the composition of shampoos, a…

You ignored the substance of my point: a dishwasher is an employee of a licenced/regulated business operator, who is answerable to a regulatory regime. The state has a regulatory handle on the dishwasher already, and doesn't need to licence them or force them to take training to ensure minimal standards. Cosmetologists are usually independent contractors and are the responsible party, equivalent in legal terms to the restaurant owner/operator, not the dishwasher.