Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#51

Post by carlob » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:18 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #48

Many conservatives in the U.S. believe that poverty is mainly a result of bad personal decisions. Is this article arguing that poverty is never a result of bad personal decisions? If so, I have a few anecdotes that would be contrary to that.

> Is this article arguing that poverty is never a result of bad personal decisions?

No I think this article is arguing that ending bad personal decisions (if at all possible) will not significantly affect poverty, but a safety net will.

Another interesting topic, which is not mentioned in the article, is how poverty causes bad personal decisions.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#52

Post by Empact » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:19 AM UTC

non-entity wrote: post #5

chrisdhoover wrote: post #3

When we redline, assign schools without regard to quality, hassle folks for petty infractions to pump revenue, sieze assets without due process, limit entrepreneurship with onerous licensing requirements, and imprison poor folks at higher rates you end up with a perpetual underclass.

> limit entrepreneurship with onerous licensing requirements I work for a government agency that provides professional licensing in my state and was shocked the other day to learn that you need a license to operate as a "hair braider". This seemed a bit excessive to me

The Institute for Justice has been challenging laws requiring licensing for hair braiders in the courts and has successfully overturned them in several states. https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#53

Post by Sophistifunk » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:24 AM UTC

It doesn't matter who's fault it is. What matters is "can we afford to help these people?" and for a lot of definitions of "help" we can, and most people think we should.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#54

Post by DoreenMichele » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:26 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #45

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean relative poverty. Many years ago, I saw a study that indicated that less than 1/2 of 1% of Americans were poor by the standards of India. Even homeless people in the US typically ate better than people classified as poor in India. But we still have homeless people here in the US. They typically have serious personal problems, such as serious medical conditions. Being homeless in the US is a genuine hardshi…

The average social security check is $1461 ( https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/social-security/ar... ). There are plenty of places in small town USA that you can rent for $600-$700 a month and have money left over.

Of the 7.5 million existing rental homes that extremely low-income families can afford, 3.5 million are occupied by higher-income households. In other words, families who need affordable housing the most don’t necessarily get it.

From this article:

For every 100 families living in poverty on the West Coast, there are no more than 30 affordable homes

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/every-100-families-living-pove...

Most people will absolutely not be getting the average amount. Some will be getting quite a lot less than the average.

(Someone with a PhD once told me: "The average human would have one breast, one testicle and a three inch weiner." Designing policy around averages is practically guaranteed to go bad places.)

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#55

Post by mandelbrotwurst » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:29 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #45

DoreenMichele wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean relative poverty. Many years ago, I saw a study that indicated that less than 1/2 of 1% of Americans were poor by the standards of India. Even homeless people in the US typically ate better than people classified as poor in India. But we still have homeless people here in the US. They typically have serious personal problems, such as serious medical conditions. Being homeless in the US is a genuine hardshi…

The average social security check is $1461 ( https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/social-security/ar... ). There are plenty of places in small town USA that you can rent for $600-$700 a month and have money left over.

What point are you trying to make here?

How is the average retiree's income from Social Security relevant to the broader issue of poverty and homelessness among people of all ages?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#56

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:31 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #12

Funny that at the point high quality LED tv's and digital signals come onstream, the world moves from Free-to-Air into pay-to-watch. So the poor can afford amazing TVs but cannot afford to buy the content we rich get to watch. Absolute poverty improves but relative poverty goes backward is a constant. Taxing cigarettes to contain cancer risks is a no brainer, which rich people can buy themselves out from but poor add…

> the poor can afford amazing TVs but cannot afford to buy the content we rich get to watch.

I was surprised to discover the local public library http://kcls.org seems to have a greater selection of DVDs than Netflix. You can also check out a box set all at once instead of Netflix sending one DVD at a time, which is nice for binge watching.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#57

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:32 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #54

scarface74 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average social security check is $1461 ( https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/social-security/ar... ). There are plenty of places in small town USA that you can rent for $600-$700 a month and have money left over.

Of the 7.5 million existing rental homes that extremely low-income families can afford, 3.5 million are occupied by higher-income households. In other words, families who need affordable housing the most don’t necessarily get it. From this article: For every 100 families living in poverty on the West Coast, there are no more than 30 affordable homes https://www.geekwire.com/2018/every-100-families-living-pove... Most…

For every 100 families living in poverty on the West Coast, there are no more than 30 affordable homes

There are 45 more states in the contiguous US that are not on the west coast.....

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#58

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:34 AM UTC

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #55

scarface74 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average social security check is $1461 ( https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/social-security/ar... ). There are plenty of places in small town USA that you can rent for $600-$700 a month and have money left over.

What point are you trying to make here? How is the average retiree's income from Social Security relevant to the broader issue of poverty and homelessness among people of all ages?

From the parent post:

If you live on Social Security as your only income and can no longer work, we don't have any market based housing for you and many government housing projects have wait lists that are years long.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#59

Post by ThJ » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:38 AM UTC

hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this.

Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these clueless people will need to form opinions about how sick you are and how much help you need, and they'll often be wrong, and you'll have to fight them.

It's better than the alternative, of course, but it's not anywhere near being the utopia that U.S. liberals like to describe it as. They're just using us to promote their own agenda.

With that said, I do find myself thanking heaven that I was born in this country from time to time.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#60

Post by tehjoker » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 5:48 AM UTC

ThJ wrote: post #59

hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these…

For what it's worth, the ambition on the left over here (in the US) is to eliminate means testing for programs as much as possible. Healthcare problems? Free healthcare for everyone, no forms required. No home? Everyone gets a free / low cost house. We aim to do much more than that (give control of the economy to the people), but a robust welfare state is a good start.