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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median individual monthly income in WA state is slightly above 4K monthly. Half of this is 2K monthly or more accurately given how most people actually get paid 923 every 2 weeks. After taxes this is more like 784. After paying for insurance as you are too rich to get free health care you are looking at more like 684. This qualifies you to live virtually nowhere because most places want you to make 3x the rent an…

I’m not sure I’d do the math the same way. First, it seems to me that the median household income is a better number, as most people share expenses and many households have two incomes. That seems to me to better inform ability to get by. In Washington, that’s $70k.[1] Half that is $35k, or just shy of $3k/month. With ACA subsidies, a person in that situation won’t likely be paying $400/month in health insurance. The…

I will in fact make nearly the figure you started with for half of the median household for in my case for a household of 2. Despite your links I'm not sure how you figured the rest of your numbers despite citations.

The ACA subsidies turned out to be a joke for me.

A) Cheap options like high deductible plans or plans with very high co-pays for drugs make no sense if you know your medical expenses will be quite high.

B) They misjudged how much they should pay towards the VERY expensive options they offer on the market and decided at the end of the year that they had paid too much and I ended up with a huge bill.

C) Non of the options were affordable this year

I'm paying $361 every 2 weeks for employer provided medical and this is still cheaper than the market options were.

If you add the cost of drugs I'm paying closer to 10k out of 36k for medical costs + 3k in taxes leaving me with 23k leaving me with 1900 per month.

In regards to the disposition of people in the state people actually tend to cluster around where the jobs are not where the cows are. 75% of the population of WA state lives in the western 40%. Nearly 1/3 in king county alone heavily clustered around Seattle and outlying cities.

I had some difficulty digging up exact recent sources. In 2000 around 69% of citizens lived in places with populations 50K or more.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/DataFiles/53180/25602_WA.pd...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#282
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how "free" is it when we pay the taxes for it? Public healthcare is a term that is less likely to trigger red flags, pun intended, in the minds of conservatives who react to "free" or "socialized".

>And how "free" is it when we pay the taxes for it? It's free as in... when someone needs it, no matter how much money they make or do not make.. whether they are employed or unemployed.. they can use it "FOR FREE". Calling the police for me "IS FREE". My kids going to public school for me "IS FREE". Calling the fire department "IS FREE". Going to the doctor when you are sick should also be "FOR FREE".

Right, just pointing out that the media often uses the term "free" when referring to public programs that workers pay for with their tax dollars. It is deceptive.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#283
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're just comparing a typical dev salary in London to an unusually high dev salary for NYC or SF. If you make much less than that in SF or NYC, there is no point in living in such an expensive place. Go make that London salary working in a rural area of the US. >Because you don't have enough money. There's no cap on medical bills. See for example the article I linked to regarding the $500,000 bill for dialysis. Th…

>If you make much less than that in SF or NYC, there is no point in living in such an expensive place. Go make that London salary working in a rural area of the US. The median household income in New York is $50,000. I would rather live in London than in a rural area of the US - thanks. You talk as if people have no preferences besides maximizing the salary to cost of living ratio. > So basically, insurance said they…

You are citing bustle who is in turn citing tweets with that article. That's your best evidence? Can't find a AP article anywhere? Shouldn't there be thousands and thousands of examples to pick from?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#284
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not perfect, but still seems better than in a system were a broken arm can literally ruin you unless you have a good job.

just don't pay the bill. That's the solution. It won't ruin your life. It may mess up your credit for a few years, but how many people in the situation have both good credit and will actually use it in the next few years? Hell, having bad credit may protect them from "predatory lending" we also hear about constantly. Remember kids, if some areshole sends you a bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars that has little…

"It may mess up your credit for a few years, but how many people in the situation have both good credit and will actually use it in the next few years?"

Clarification: Going bankrupt will be a mark on one's credit for the next 7 or 10 years. It may prevent someone from acquiring necessary loans to get a car, housing, opening a small business, and other things people consider to be advancing their life or career.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also that tobacco doesn't cause cancer, guess what those studies have in common?" No, please do tell me exactly what those studies have in common, with citations. You asked for something that isn't rumor and second hand stories. I provided. Now you move the goalposts and ask for my single best story. Please clarify your behavior and your motivations in engaging in this discussion: Do you actually wish to process dat…

The people who produce them benefit from the result. Who says we need massive governmental spending in healthcare? Why governmental healthcare authorities of course! I'm skeptical, especially when the specific examples provided don't match up with the rhetoric. Also the burden would not even be that people die from lack of healthcare in the US, it would be that more people die from lack of healthcare in the US than p…

"The people who produce them benefit from the result."

Can you cite specific studies, their specific researchers, and their specific funding grants?

"Also the burden would not even be that people die from lack of healthcare in the US, it would be that more people die from lack of healthcare in the US than people die from healthcare rationing in the UK"

This is not what you claimed. Please clarify the contradiction between your statements.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#286

It doesn't matter who's fault it is. What matters is "can we afford to help these people?" and for a lot of definitions of "help" we can, and most people think we should.

How about the question: "should we force everyone to help these people?" I don't think you are talking about charity in any of the "help" definitions.

What would your answer be?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who produce them benefit from the result. Who says we need massive governmental spending in healthcare? Why governmental healthcare authorities of course! I'm skeptical, especially when the specific examples provided don't match up with the rhetoric. Also the burden would not even be that people die from lack of healthcare in the US, it would be that more people die from lack of healthcare in the US than p…

"The people who produce them benefit from the result." Can you cite specific studies, their specific researchers, and their specific funding grants? "Also the burden would not even be that people die from lack of healthcare in the US, it would be that more people die from lack of healthcare in the US than people die from healthcare rationing in the UK" This is not what you claimed. Please clarify the contradiction be…

Readers will see my point, I don't need to get into the weeds with you like this over minor details.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#288

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I think there's a lot of nuance that gets missed, but before I get into it, a few things about me.

1. I grew up extremely poor. By poor I mean living in a pup-tent down by the river. Going to school with duct tape around my shoes to hold them together. eating beans and oatmeal for 3 meals a day months at a time. Having 3 sets of clothes, all of them involving sweats, and recycling them throughout the week. You get the picture.

2. I agree that we need the safety nets you're speaking of.

3. I turned 40 this year. Long enough to get more of an objective perspective on my childhoold than could have happened 10 and 20 years ago.

4. I'm Native American, as is my mother.

And now having said that. There are many poor people who are poor because of the decisions they make. And there are many poor people who are that way due to circumstances beyond their control.

Both sides of this debate are right, neither side is actually interested in reality.

Looking back on my childhood, my step-father was not of average intelligence. He was, without a doubt, the dumbest person in our household, and I think at some point he realized that.

This man would make piss-poor decisions. I don't want to get into specifics, but as an adult looking back, a large part of our problems were stupid shit this man would do. I remember one job he had in which he was making decent money. By decent money, I mean we could afford to order pizza for the family every other friday, and for us it was amazing. We felt rich just being able to do that. It didn't last for more than 6 months because he's an idiot.

My mother was sent to a boarding school at the age of 5 where she was beaten and raped until she married at 16 to get away from the school (no HS diploma). I've heard her tell stories and I know I haven't heard all of it. They would put the children into the showers and tell them to cover themselves with soap. If they weren't white enough, they would strap them with a belt under those showers until they were. My entire extended family went to those boarding schools (my grandmother had 16 children and 3 step-children), but my mother and 1 of my uncles went at a very young age. The way my mother tells it, that school eventually got shut down when the child of a senator wanted to go to the school to be with a friend and the child got beat. I can't vouch for the accuracy, but that's the story she tells.

When I was in HS I have a vivid memory of walking in on my mother crying and asking her what was going on. She started talking about many of the things she never revealed to us as children. And I remember crying because I knew she was hurting and I had the wisdom to understand there was nothing I could do.

Even now, years later, I get emotional just thinking about it.

----

So with all that being said, I want to address 3 different ideas that often get spoken about.

1. poor people bring it on themselves

Yes they do. very often.

2. Poor people are poor due to circumstances outside their control.

Absolutely. It does happen, and we need safety nets for it.

3. People who are not poor are just lucky.

yes and no.

Here's where my luck ran.

- I'm pretty smart

- My step-father was very abusive and it caused me to close in on myself. Due to this I discovered reading. through reading I discovered a love for sci-fi. Through sci-fi I discovered a love of technology. And through that love of technology I chose CS in college. I also discovered I like math and double majored in CS and Math.

- I went all-in with software development. It was a passion. This helped me start self-identifying as a software developer and not that abused poor kid. I would eventually realize just how big of a deal that is.

- My mother pushed education on us as hard as she could. It was the one thing she would never budge on. She knew how much she missed out on. My mother was not dumb, just uneducated.

- My childhood taught me that decision making is an important life skill. I'm damned good at it because as early as middle school I had learned that lesson, and have fostered it all these years.

Here's where my luck didn't run.

I tend to make good decisions. That's all me.

I work my ass off. That's all me.

I choose not to allow other people to affect me. Yes I've been called a red N-word in my life. Those sorts of things never had any effect on my life, I simply stay away from those people. When you allow these people to affect you to the point that you're spending energy on them, they win.

My overarching point is this:

This debate gets super old because most of the people involved in it aren't interested in reality. I've lived and seen both sides of it and I get really tired of seeing these same simplistic arguments argued over. Both sides are right. and wrong.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#289
post #235
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.

To go a step further we probably should license dish washers. To make sure they know the risks of spreading food borne disease.

Look up Typhoid Mary [0]. We don't licence dish washers because running a restaurant requires adhering to a large body of commercial food safety law that requires the restaurant owner/operator to maintain standards of hygiene. If freelance dish washing were a thing, we probably would licence them.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

> You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything. The point of the article is precisely that the US _doesn't_ have free everything, much less adequate support for the poor. > it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US. Another way to look at the issue is that Democrats generally…

> This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US.

False. While donations to churches are tax deductible, they aren't automatically 501c3 orgs. Source: my church applied to be one, in the event that church donations aren't automatically tax deductible.

> For someone who mentions churches several times, you seem to have missed one of the core lessons about caring for thy neighbor.

You seem to have missed the part where he mentioned 'my community'.

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