Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#271

Post by usrusr » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

Mordisquitos wrote: post #122

peteretep wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America has a real empathy problem Hypothesis: that’s a function of some kind of Dunbar’s Law thing about the population size of a country. China and India as confirming examples, Japan as possibly an exception

Not likely. Why would the groups subject to this effect be defined at the relatively artificial level of the nation state, and not at any other subnational (states or provinces) or supranational (EU or cultural sphere) level? Furthermore, watch out for confirmation bias: why is Japan a possible exception rather than a counterexample?

Nation states provide a level of isolation that states or provinces don't, at all.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#272

Post by foldr » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #264

foldr wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've seen 75k USD salaries commonly in London and 400k+ is not unheard of in fang companies. You're just comparing a typical dev salary in London to an unusually high dev salary for NYC or SF. I don't see what insight you hope to gain by doing that. (The people making big money as software developers in London work as independent consultants rather than employees, by the way, as it's more favorable from a tax point…

>You're just comparing a typical dev salary in London to an unusually high dev salary for NYC or SF. If you make much less than that in SF or NYC, there is no point in living in such an expensive place. Go make that London salary working in a rural area of the US. >Because you don't have enough money. There's no cap on medical bills. See for example the article I linked to regarding the $500,000 bill for dialysis. Th…

>If you make much less than that in SF or NYC, there is no point in living in such an expensive place. Go make that London salary working in a rural area of the US.

The median household income in New York is $50,000. I would rather live in London than in a rural area of the US - thanks. You talk as if people have no preferences besides maximizing the salary to cost of living ratio.

> So basically, insurance said they would not pay for the clinic this person selected and since they have zero agency they kept going and got the bill that they were told they were going to get.

I can’t figure out exactly what you’re trying to say here. It seems you are trying to find some way to convince yourself that these people deserved to get a $500,000 bill so that you can kid yourself that this could never happen to you. Yes, it’s their fault for failing to fly to another state in the middle of a medical crisis to find an in network provider, in the absence of any clear information regarding treatment costs from from medical staff or the insurance company.

> Did they actually pay the bill? Of course not. They took a credit hit.

We don’t know from the article how much they ended up paying. In any case, taking a credit hit is not a trivial thing. In your earlier comments, for example, you clearly placed a large value on home ownership. It’s difficult to buy a home with bad credit.

>What was one individuals name who this happened to. Not a study. Not "we think it happens". What is the persons name?

This article collects a number of stories involving named individuals:

https://www.bustle.com/p/these-20-stories-refute-the-idea-th...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#273

Post by fuzz4lyfe » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:19 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #270

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I'm told should be thousands of stories like this, why can't you find one where you can prove that the person died? It's all rumor and second hand stories. If someone in my family died due to someone refusing them medical care I'd be all over the media about it.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-devastating-process-of... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/24/us-healthcar... https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/10/15/study-45... https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10367/care-without-coverage-too-... https://www.bustle.com/p/these-20-stories-refute-the-idea-th... ??? There are studies that directly show that not having insurance is deadly.

From the first example: "By the time Portillo found out about a small county program that sends health workers to the homes of low-income, bedridden patients, her father had been at home without pain medication for two and a half months. The nurse practitioner who came, spurred by Aquilino’s obvious suffering, rushed to order medication to make him more comfortable. Two days later, when the morphine had barely had a chance to soothe him, he was gone."

There was a program, they didn't use it until the end, he was going to die anyway. He did not die due to lack of medical care.

I'm not going to go through each one, give me your best example.

>??? There are studies that directly show that not having insurance is deadly.

Also that tobacco doesn't cause cancer, guess what those studies have in common?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#274

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:22 PM UTC

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #273

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-devastating-process-of... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/24/us-healthcar... https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/10/15/study-45... https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10367/care-without-coverage-too-... https://www.bustle.com/p/these-20-stories-refute-the-idea-th... ??? There are studies that directly show that not having insurance is deadly.

From the first example: "By the time Portillo found out about a small county program that sends health workers to the homes of low-income, bedridden patients, her father had been at home without pain medication for two and a half months. The nurse practitioner who came, spurred by Aquilino’s obvious suffering, rushed to order medication to make him more comfortable. Two days later, when the morphine had barely had a…

"Also that tobacco doesn't cause cancer, guess what those studies have in common?"

No, please do tell me exactly what those studies have in common, with citations.

You asked for something that isn't rumor and second hand stories. I provided. Now you move the goalposts and ask for my single best story. Please clarify your behavior and your motivations in engaging in this discussion: Do you actually wish to process data that is contrary to your belief on how the world functions?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#275

Post by refurb » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

mr_overalls wrote: post #261

briandear wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

> You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything. The point of the article is precisely that the US _doesn't_ have free everything, much less adequate support for the poor. > it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US. Another way to look at the issue is that Democrats generally…

The point of the article is precisely that the US _doesn't_ have free everything, much less adequate support for the poor.

Huh?

The chart at the bottom says US safety net spending is higher than Australia and Canada.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#276

Post by mcv » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #191

tremon wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the first one has my respect. The second one I'm neutral towards, the others fail as human beings in my view.

If you provide something society needs and people give you money in exchange then how on earth is that failing as a human being?

It depends a lot on how they make that money. Do they do it by writing a popular, insightful book that everybody wants to read[0], or by running a hedge fund that buy companies, fires half the employees, loads them with debt, and sells them in an IPO?

[0] Hasn't this taken JK Rowling straight from poor to billionaire?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#277

Post by philliphaydon » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

disordinary wrote: post #212

philliphaydon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s elective it’s not covered at all in NZ. Was my understanding. If it’s not urgent you’re on a waiting list unless you have private insurance. I haven’t lived in NZ for like 12 years so I could be wrong.

You can definitely have elective surgery through the public health system but there's a set number done per year whereas all other treatment are done as soon as possible.

Interesting. Learn something new every day. My dad’s cancer treatment last year was completely covered. Even the hospital lodge my parents stayed at for a few weeks while he was in hospital was covered. I’m Glad that NZ isn’t a completely socialist country and just has socialist ideals.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#278

Post by mrlala » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

11235853211 wrote: post #265

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #257

If you have been fortunate in life, then you realize how much of your life is just luck of the draw and you start having more empathy for other people (hopefully) and you realize that we (America) are at a stage where we can afford to give basic social safety nets to people who need it the most. Hell, i think medical insurance is one of the biggest scams. I haven't gone to the doctors in years, yet i pay every month,…

And how "free" is it when we pay the taxes for it? Public healthcare is a term that is less likely to trigger red flags, pun intended, in the minds of conservatives who react to "free" or "socialized".

>And how "free" is it when we pay the taxes for it?

It's free as in... when someone needs it, no matter how much money they make or do not make.. whether they are employed or unemployed.. they can use it "FOR FREE".

Calling the police for me "IS FREE". My kids going to public school for me "IS FREE". Calling the fire department "IS FREE". Going to the doctor when you are sick should also be "FOR FREE".

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#279

Post by fuzz4lyfe » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #274

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the first example: "By the time Portillo found out about a small county program that sends health workers to the homes of low-income, bedridden patients, her father had been at home without pain medication for two and a half months. The nurse practitioner who came, spurred by Aquilino’s obvious suffering, rushed to order medication to make him more comfortable. Two days later, when the morphine had barely had a…

"Also that tobacco doesn't cause cancer, guess what those studies have in common?" No, please do tell me exactly what those studies have in common, with citations. You asked for something that isn't rumor and second hand stories. I provided. Now you move the goalposts and ask for my single best story. Please clarify your behavior and your motivations in engaging in this discussion: Do you actually wish to process dat…

The people who produce them benefit from the result.

Who says we need massive governmental spending in healthcare? Why governmental healthcare authorities of course! I'm skeptical, especially when the specific examples provided don't match up with the rhetoric.

Also the burden would not even be that people die from lack of healthcare in the US, it would be that more people die from lack of healthcare in the US than people die from healthcare rationing in the UK. He's a case of someone who actually died from that[0].

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Gard_case

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#280

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #245

hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

> Contrast that with a former friend who had a similar medical issue in Europe. I also have "a friend from Europe", he's on government disability and it makes for a very basic living. Furthermore, should he be able to find work, most of that money will be taken away. He wishes he would've bought private insurance when he still had the chance. Two guys from Europe aren't statistically relevant, of course. > America ha…

"I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim."

Does the homeless begging for the spare change of private citizens count? I see this all the time.