Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#211

Post by hcurtiss » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:00 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #88

hcurtiss wrote: post #41

Are we sure that half the median is a good definition of “poor”? At least hypothetically, in a very wealthy country, that may still be an adequate amount to get by.

The median individual monthly income in WA state is slightly above 4K monthly. Half of this is 2K monthly or more accurately given how most people actually get paid 923 every 2 weeks. After taxes this is more like 784. After paying for insurance as you are too rich to get free health care you are looking at more like 684. This qualifies you to live virtually nowhere because most places want you to make 3x the rent an…

I’m not sure I’d do the math the same way. First, it seems to me that the median household income is a better number, as most people share expenses and many households have two incomes. That seems to me to better inform ability to get by. In Washington, that’s $70k.[1] Half that is $35k, or just shy of $3k/month. With ACA subsidies, a person in that situation won’t likely be paying $400/month in health insurance. The max for a family of four at $35k is actually $1300 per year, or a little over $100/month, and an individual at $35k is closer to $200.[2] $2800/month is not a great deal of money, but it’s not living in squalor. And, as you say, it depends on location. A high proportion of of those people will not be living in Seattle, but rather rural areas where the cost of living is cheaper. The median household income in Seattle is closer to $85k. Also note that federal after taxes income after accounting for transfers actually goes up for the second quintile.[3]

[1] https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/washington/ [2] https://www.financialsamurai.com/subsidy-amounts-by-income-l... [3] https://taxfoundation.org/average-federal-tax-rates-income-g...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#212

Post by disordinary » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:00 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #193

disordinary wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in New Zealand you don't get asked any questions about finances or being able to afford it but if it's elective and not urgent you'll be prioritised behind those who need the healthcare urgently. No bureaucrats involved (unless it's very specialised care like experimental medication or the need to send someone overseas) just the doctors and specialists. Public healthcare isn't the same in every country.

If it’s elective it’s not covered at all in NZ. Was my understanding. If it’s not urgent you’re on a waiting list unless you have private insurance. I haven’t lived in NZ for like 12 years so I could be wrong.

You can definitely have elective surgery through the public health system but there's a set number done per year whereas all other treatment are done as soon as possible.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#213

Post by idighkwjt » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:03 PM UTC

maxheadroom wrote: post #208

idighkwjt wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the issue is that no other country in the world will take them? Even if we assume that’s true, that’s reason enough to be grateful. People are literally dying to break into the country for the opportunity that these folks are complaining is inadequate.

> So the issue is that no other country in the world will take them? Even if we assume that’s true, that’s reason enough to be grateful. ...but you're ignoring the principle that people are flippantly telling them, " If you don't like, just leave! ", which is what brought about this discussion in the first place. It isn't a realistic option when such barriers exist. > People are literally dying to break into the coun…

So what if it’s not a real option? What are you saying? What should I take from that?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#214

Post by fuzz4lyfe » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #96

majidazimi wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this "Europe is awesome place to live" come from? I live in Germany, I got ear wax, the doctor waiting line was more than a week, so I developed tinnitus problem in a couple of days because of the wax (I don't use any headphone, I don't work in any noisy place so they don't have any effect). Insurance didn't cover medicine cost, so I paid it in cash while I was a student. Then the doctor said, it's too lat…

It's not perfect, but still seems better than in a system were a broken arm can literally ruin you unless you have a good job.

just don't pay the bill.

That's the solution. It won't ruin your life. It may mess up your credit for a few years, but how many people in the situation have both good credit and will actually use it in the next few years? Hell, having bad credit may protect them from "predatory lending" we also hear about constantly.

Remember kids, if some areshole sends you a bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars that has little legal recourse for you to actually pay it. Don't.

just... don't... pay... the... bill...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#215

Post by mrhappyunhappy » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

Sorry to hear about what you went or are currently going through. The medical insurance situation in US is beyond f’ed up. Most people who can afford it just don’t think about how terrible it really is. It takes some serious illness or accident to wake people up to the insane situation that is US healthcare. It sounds like you are well aware of that, unfortunately.

I grew up in a communist country and for all the shit communism gets, I was never denied medical care or could not afford it. In US I made above average income and yet the cost of healthcare was far from unnoticeable, especially with deductibles, excluded procedures and ridiculous billing free for all. I have some f’ed up stories, but for another day.

I now live in Japan. I still pay a fair bit for insurance, but I can feel very confident that in a case of a serious injury, illness or extended hospital stay, I will not go bankrupt. In fact, it’ll be like nothing changed - financially. I used to lose sleep over thinking about insurance issues in US, but now I never think about any of that. It’s such a huge relief to focus on other more important things in life. But, Murcia, they tell you it’s the best place, if you kindly forget about the healthcare issues. Don’t get me wrong, there are many wonderful things about the good ol US of A, but healthcare is not one of them.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#216

Post by dmitriid » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #185

Poverty is a moving target; no matter what we do, there will always be the bottom 10% that will be considered poor by comparison. Double the income of everyone - bottom 10% will remain there. Triple the income of the lower half of the population: you still have a bottom. So what exactly is the measure of the problem and how to measure it was solved, when it will eventually be solved?

There's a huge difference between "poor as in can't afford a meal or go to a doctor" and "poor as in can't afford an apartment in the middle of New York".

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#217

Post by scarface74 » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:05 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #77

scarface74 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the parent post: If you live on Social Security as your only income and can no longer work, we don't have any market based housing for you and many government housing projects have wait lists that are years long.

Maybe all the poor people aren't too stupid to figure this out but have various complicating factors that often tag along with poverty like bad credit or losing their home due to poverty or job loss which is often described as a "poor rental history". It also assumes that one can find housing so cheap in areas where other people in your household can also find work. Lets be charitable and assume that poor people aren…

I never said that wasn’t the case, I replied to one specific part of the comment.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#218

Post by maxheadroom » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:05 PM UTC

avip wrote: post #181

CalRobert wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible?

>What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible?

Most of the more restrictive EU countries (e.g.: UK, Ireland, etc.) have barriers to getting immigration stamps, which the most oft way of immigration is through employment and the most labour available to foreigners is either tech or medicine.

For example, in Sweden, a position must be listed as a highly qualified skill, the role must be listed for 20 days (I think it is) - so that EU citizens can be afforded an opportunity before the role is given to an immigrant, and then the employment contract must be agreed upon by the labour union before it can be approved.

You're not getting an employment contract, for example, to work in Burger King in Stockholm because it wouldn't pass the labour market needs test.

So, this is presumably why the OC thinks that medicine and tech make you immigration eligible.

Worthy of note is that tech or medicine are the best ways to get the EU Blue card (the equivalent of the US Greencard); so, the assumption isn't without its merits.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#219

Post by ShinTakuya » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:06 PM UTC

esailija wrote: post #157

amthewiz wrote: post #69

> So Japanese people are doing everything right -- eschewing violence, avoiding drugs, working hard and not having kids out of wedlock. They are following the conservative prescription, as well as or better than any other developed country in the world. And yet still, many of them are poor. This suggests that there is something very wrong with the conservative theory of poverty. No, the author is confused. There is a…

You say there is a "big difference" but logically they are exactly the same claim. Also, no need to "recommend" making "good choices" any more than you need to recommend breathing.

Not at all. One is saying that it's possible to get out of poverty by making good choices. One is saying that it's impossible to be in poverty if you make good choices. Subtle but big difference.

I disagree with both statements regardless, but there is a difference.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#220

Post by Lucadg » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:08 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #130

CalRobert wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

As usual, if you're well-off you have extra options. Get $500k to buy some property (which you can then rent) in Portugal or Spain and you get residency (and later can apply for citizenship). Then again, if you have access to $500k, the safety net is probably less interesting.

Greece has a similar program if I'm not mistaken.