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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#91

Post by barry-cotter »

username90 wrote: post #73

I think the question should not be "Why are there so many poor in USA", but "Why does it suck so much to be poor in USA". I believe that the urban layout and exorbitant healthcare costs are the main issues. If poor neighborhoods were walkable and had cheap supermarkets with fresh produce then you wouldn't need a car, and the density would mean that you have plenty of potential friends within walking distance so you w…

> If poor neighborhoods were walkable and had cheap supermarkets with fresh produce

I don’t know about walkable but poor neighbourhoods full of recent immigrants have cheap supermarkets with fresh produce in the US. The poor neighbourhoods with no fresh produce don’t have it because the people living there don’t want it.

https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/AllcottDiamondDube_FoodDe...

> THE GEOGRAPHY OF POVERTY AND NUTRITION: FOOD DESERTS AND FOOD CHOICES ACROSS THE UNITED STATES

> We study the causes of “nutritional inequality”: why the wealthy tend to eat more healthfully than the poor in the U.S. Using event study designs exploiting supermarket entry and households' moves to healthier neighborhoods, we reject that neighborhood environments have meaningful effects on healthy eating. Using a structural demand model, we find that exposing low-income households to the same availability and prices experienced by high-income households reduces nutritional inequality by only 9%, while the remaining 91% is driven by differences in demand. These findings contrast with discussions of nutritional inequality that emphasize supply-side factors such as food deserts.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#92

Post by ramblerman »

rjf72 wrote: post #79
tehjoker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the ambition on the left over here (in the US) is to eliminate means testing for programs as much as possible. Healthcare problems? Free healthcare for everyone, no forms required. No home? Everyone gets a free / low cost house. We aim to do much more than that (give control of the economy to the people), but a robust welfare state is a good start.

Imagine there was a button you could push that would give every single person everything you're mentioning - a free house, free healthcare, and all the things you're not mentioning - free education, free sustenance, free childcare, free longterm paid pa/maternal leave, guaranteed high paying jobs, etc. Who wouldn't push this button? I think every single individual, right/left/libertarian/liberal/conservative or whate…

It's easy to make an argument when you generalize your opponents viewpoint to the most extreme and ridiculous standpoint.

Switzerland is by no means a socialist utopia. You don't get a free house, or are somehow guaranteed a high paying job (who was even arguing that?).

But when it comes to healthcare everyone is in the same pot. I.e. you contribute the average for a person your age and share the risk across the population, as it should be imo.

We could absolutely stop people going bankrupt when they get cancer.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#93

Post by ap3 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #2

There will always be relative poverty. In other words if we "solved poverty" and there were no more hungry people without health insurance sleeping in the streets, you would still have people who had less than others around them. But we can try to solve absolute poverty. We can try to make sure everyone has medical coverage, adequate nutrition etc. An important element of that is we need to design systems where havin…

Is there absolute poverty in the US ?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#94

Post by maehwasu »

raverbashing wrote: post #87
ThJ wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these…

"Backside" All of this sounds like just regular checks to prevent abuse of the system "Humiliating"? Maybe, but that's their job. No I don't think it could be much different. Of course it's not an utopia, but I've heard much worse from countries much less well off than the US. I don't think any country does that much better than Norway tbh

Agree—it’s perfectly reasonable for them to do this, and likely the only way the system could function at good cost and without abuse.

However, the problem in an American context is that people would likely see this as invasive. They’d demand the free treatment without the privacy invasions needed to make it work.

To be clear, I think the tradeoff is absolutely worth it, but America’s track record in making reasonable tradeoffs is awful.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#95

Post by hohloma »

rjf72 wrote: post #79
tehjoker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the ambition on the left over here (in the US) is to eliminate means testing for programs as much as possible. Healthcare problems? Free healthcare for everyone, no forms required. No home? Everyone gets a free / low cost house. We aim to do much more than that (give control of the economy to the people), but a robust welfare state is a good start.

Imagine there was a button you could push that would give every single person everything you're mentioning - a free house, free healthcare, and all the things you're not mentioning - free education, free sustenance, free childcare, free longterm paid pa/maternal leave, guaranteed high paying jobs, etc. Who wouldn't push this button? I think every single individual, right/left/libertarian/liberal/conservative or whate…

When you already started, why didn't you try to really compare the numbers? Norways GDP per capita is only a little higher - 75k USD, and if you actually checked, much of their oil profits go into their national fund and not spent. But if we actually start checking more, Sweden, who has a much higher population and no oil profits, also has the same socialistic policies with a per capita GDP of only 53k USD. I dont believe in free lunch, unlike many left leaning people, but some form of universally free policies are clearly possible, if taxation and implementation are done right.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#96

Post by adrianN »

majidazimi wrote: post #76
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

Where does this "Europe is awesome place to live" come from? I live in Germany, I got ear wax, the doctor waiting line was more than a week, so I developed tinnitus problem in a couple of days because of the wax (I don't use any headphone, I don't work in any noisy place so they don't have any effect). Insurance didn't cover medicine cost, so I paid it in cash while I was a student. Then the doctor said, it's too lat…

It's not perfect, but still seems better than in a system were a broken arm can literally ruin you unless you have a good job.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#97

Post by monetus »

majidazimi wrote: post #83
Sharlin wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry for your experience, but individual anecdotes are still not data.

Absolutely. What I meant is, shit happens all the time and you have to be prepared for that. Medication cost didn't cause me an issue, because I save my money quite aggressively. Being poor (by global standards) in a developed country heavily depends on person's lifestyle and decisions.

We have long wait times here in the U.S. too, at least in my experience. Two months for my last specialist, three weeks for a gp. This isn't a competition, so please don't take it that way; what I'm saying is that, despite your anecdote, I'm desperate for your healthcare (at least I think I am). I'm really curious if there are situations there, akin to those faced by the uninsured here, where corners are cut to save costs and the patient is left abandoned with a partial diagnosis / misdiagnosis.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#98

Post by zhdc1 »

ramblerman wrote: post #92
rjf72 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine there was a button you could push that would give every single person everything you're mentioning - a free house, free healthcare, and all the things you're not mentioning - free education, free sustenance, free childcare, free longterm paid pa/maternal leave, guaranteed high paying jobs, etc. Who wouldn't push this button? I think every single individual, right/left/libertarian/liberal/conservative or whate…

It's easy to make an argument when you generalize your opponents viewpoint to the most extreme and ridiculous standpoint. Switzerland is by no means a socialist utopia. You don't get a free house, or are somehow guaranteed a high paying job (who was even arguing that?). But when it comes to healthcare everyone is in the same pot. I.e. you contribute the average for a person your age and share the risk across the popu…

Switzerland has a very strong social support system for people who make what, in other countries, would be a solidly middle class income.

This includes subsidies for housing, basic necessities, and healthcare insurance.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#99

Post by jayd16 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #2

There will always be relative poverty. In other words if we "solved poverty" and there were no more hungry people without health insurance sleeping in the streets, you would still have people who had less than others around them. But we can try to solve absolute poverty. We can try to make sure everyone has medical coverage, adequate nutrition etc. An important element of that is we need to design systems where havin…

Poverty has a distinct absolute definition (at least in the US). The line is so clear it is, in fact, called the poverty line.

Also, even if you can always rank net worth, you can still greatly reduce the relative inequality from what we see today.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#100

Post by jacobush »

ThJ wrote: post #59
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these…

I’m from Sweden, same system. I’d MUCH rather have this than the alternative.
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