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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#131

Post by kazen44 »

jacobush wrote: post #119
jsmith99 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a free house, free healthcare, and all the things you're not mentioning - free education, free sustenance, free childcare, free longterm paid pa/maternal leave, guaranteed high paying jobs, etc The great majority of Americans nevertheless do have houses, healthcare, education, sustenance, childcare and jobs. This suggests that the economy can provide these things and that also providing them to the small proportion…

IMHO some free riders must accepted, or the system will be too draconian and or investigation heavy.

this is a quite simple problem to solve.

If the freeriders drain less from the system then it costs to perform measures to counteract them, the system is effective.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#132

Post by netsharc »

boromisp wrote: post #71
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

A good explanation on meritocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ

TL;DW: if you believe the crap that hard work will make you successful (discounting luck), than you'd have to believe the opposite is true: that poor people are lazy.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#133

Post by praptak »

CalRobert wrote: post #117
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

Dunno about UK. Settling in Poland is not that hard, although no piece of cake either.

I believe you can get a job with the associated temporary residence permit, extend this as many times as necessary to meet the uninterrupted legal stay requirements, then apply for the permanent residence.

Getting citizenship is probably a bit harder but not impossible - about a thousand people get it in Poland each year by the decision of the president.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#134

Post by Sharlin »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

Oh puh-lease. Even a trivial googling tells me that Canada has longer waiting times than most other comparable countries with single-payer healthcare. And those waiting times? About half of GP visits are same- or next day appointments, with 20% of Canadians having to wait for a week. As for specialists, the median waiting time is roughly four weeks. [1]

So those numbers are definitely not optimal compared to many other countries, but your claim about the average being almost 20 weeks is completely ridiculous. You're entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And if your opinions are based on your own facts, don't expect to be taken seriously in any reasonably educated company.

Now, according to [2], the US fares well on two metrics: waiting time to see a specialist and waiting time to elective surgeries. Unsurprisingly, both of these are conditional on already having gotten a referral and/or having decided to book the appointment or operation. That is, most of the time, if you have decided you can afford it! Indeed, cost barriers were by far the highest in the US, as measured by the fraction of people who skipped treatment or medication due to cost.

[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3251833/canada-has-some-of-the-lo...

[2] https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/text-altern...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#135

Post by sdwa »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

Is there any evidence that the reason healthcare is so unaffordable and people go bankrupt is because people are unhealthy? Your "just be healthier" solution is no solution at all.

Regardless, people fall ill through no fault of their own all the time. I am very healthy and very active, but right now for all I know I could have a brain tumour. Your response is so stereotypically American: just ignore the problem and encourage people to take responsibility over something they by definition have little control over in the first place.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#136

Post by AlexandrB »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

> Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks...

The way this is stated is very misleading. The average time to get surgery is 20 weeks. This varies a lot by what kind of surgery you're talking about[1]. The average waiting time to see a doctor in the ER is measured in hours, with 27% of Canadians waiting 4 hours or more[2].

As a Canadian, I'm tired of Americans shitting on Canada's health care system and spreading misinformation to score political points. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over the financial devastation wrought by the US system any day.

Edit: Also, let's not forget that US citizens regularly cross the border into Canada so they can afford basics like insulin[3].

[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3084366/q-a-how-long-are-medical-...

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/medical-wait-times-up-to-3-ti...

[3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/bernie-sanders-insuli...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#137

Post by precisioncoder »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

Uh, maybe in some places in Canada? I grew up in Nova Scotia and seeing a doctor with an appointment was possible within a week, emergency was always possible right away. (Had 34 stitches by the time I was 17 due to growing up on a farm so I had a lot of experience.)

Here in Austria it's even easier, I can go directly to my family doctor at any time and wait ~hour with no appointment necessary. Xrays, or other things are usually possible same day and even elective surgery that improves quality of life is free and is plannable within a couple months with the recovery time as paid leave from work.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#138

Post by mrunkel »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

> Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks...

This is just false.

The number you're referring to is from here: "Specialist physicians surveyed report a median waiting time of 19.8 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment—shorter than the wait of 21.2 weeks reported in 2017. This year's wait time is 113% longer than in 1993, when it was just 9.3 weeks."

It's for receiving treatment from a specialist (surgery, etc.) not 'seeing a doctor'.

Somewhere around 40% of Canadians reported being able to see their primary care physician the same day. Very few reported a wait of longer than 7+ days.

Many parts of Canada are very remote. The average waiting time for someone in a major city is not as long as that.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#139

Post by tareqak »

Accipitriform wrote: post #128
Sharlin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my god, I just read news about some "centrist" Democrats arguing against universal single-payer healthcare on the grounds that some segment of the working population already gets a nice healthcare package as a benefit, and somehow it would be unfair to those people if everyone was eligible to reasonable medical care. I mean, with Democrats like that, why do you even need Republicans?

Right, of course we should want single-payer, just like Canada! Never mind that the average wait time to see a doctor in Canada is almost 20 weeks, and that tens of thousands of Canadians cross the border to the US every year to avoid that wait... There are tradeoffs with everything. Personally I think people should proactively try to live healthier lives - the medical establishment is about making money, not making…

It is not twenty weeks to see any doctor: it is twenty weeks to go from a referral from a general practitioner to receiving treatment from a specialist [0][1][2]. I’m not sure if things like consultations are counted are as treatment or not.

[0] https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/health-care-wait-times-...

[1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3251833/canada-has-some-of-the-lo...

[2] https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#140

Post by iguy »

eikenberry wrote: post #112

> Defined by the percentage of the population earning less than half of the median national income, I'm not sure I buy their definition of poverty. It speaks more about the income disparity than people living in without basic food and shelter covered, which I think the term implies. It might be more meaningful if it were the mean, but as is a few really high income earners would skew the results. I don't think using…

Median is the 50th percentile, it's unaffected by Bill Gates. So half the median is a better measure than half the mean.

However as you say it's still a measure of disparity, not an absolute level.

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