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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

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Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#311

Post by vineyardmike »

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #132
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

Yeah but you get the most bang for your buck out of rent. What's the point of renting in NYC or SF if your only there for like 2 hours.

People enjoy the cities?

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#312

Post by gfodor »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #28

Why? Because of the already sunk cost into office space? Any other reasons? I know I can drive 40 min and stare at the same laptop and email/zoom with the same people. What’s in it for me? All I see is unnecessary agony, and a lot of it. I produce more from home. Why does an employer want me to suffer more, even if it will cost them? What’s in it for them?

Seeing yourself produce more doesn't imply the net impact is positive. Because working from home (using 2020-era tools) greatly reduces social presence [1], which may be undermining team work, creative thinking, etc.

I'm a 100% remote work maximalist, I think in the long run physical offices for creative work will be non-existent. However, the fact is that the tools we have today are about 5-10 years behind where they need to be to be able to replace the social presence benefits of physical co-presence.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_presence_theory

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#313

Post by InvaderFizz »

gnicholas wrote: post #296
heavyset_go wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. For those of us who have to commute, it's not exactly the norm to be saving money while commuting. Commutes are responsible for a 10% drop in hourly wages[1], and the median commute time results in spending 10 full days commuting a year. The average commuter in one of the largest metro areas in the country will spend over 13 full days commuting a year:…

The food/drink part could be the most of it. A Google employee enjoying free food and drink could save $60/day versus buying prepared food ($10 for breakfast, $20 for lunch, and $30 for dinner). If you drink much coffee or other beverages, that could be another $15/day. If you weigh this against spending an extra hour or two commuting, then it looks like a lousy bargain. But if you are like many people, and ended up…

> But if you are like many people, and ended up working more hours during the pandemic, [1] then that erases some/all of the gains of not commuting.

Wow. I cut my hours down substantially due to WFH. Pre-COVID I was doing 70+ hrs per week due to commuting into the area during the week and having nothing to do.

Now I put in maybe 40hrs per week, broken up into 1hr chunks here and there and I'm not spending over $1500/month just for a room/expenses in the area where work is.

It's great! I'm not going back to the office, like, ever.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#314

Post by katbyte »

themacguffinman wrote: post #96
coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. Compared to commuting (car+gas) and time-to-commute opportunity costs (to use for personal house tasks, side projects, self health)? I seriously doubt it.

Not everyone spends a significant amount of time commuting by personal car to the office. I see a lot of angst about hypothetically long 1-2hr commutes when the average commute in major tech cities is ~30 mins, and of course you can always control it by living closer to the office. Sure, not everyone is willing to make sacrifices for commute, which is one reason why it can be a competitive advantage.

That’s still an hour a day which i could spend cooking a nice dinner instead or working out

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#315

Post by ChrisArchitect »

ChrisArchitect wrote: post #309

Related 2021jun01: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-01/americans... ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27376591 ) Quote that stuck with me: "my fear is the biggest cost in the long run is all the single young men come in five days a week, and college-educated women with a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old come in two days a week, and six to seven years down the road there’s a huge difference in promotio…

and a followup thought I saw posted on twitter:

"I like working from home when everybody is working from home"

is not the same thing as

"I like working from home when some people are working from home and some people are grabbing lunch with the boss",

and I think a lot of us are about to figure that out.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#316

Post by mdocherty »

amyjess wrote: post #198
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

I do not care about being competitve. I work so I can draw a salary to fund my life. That's it. I don't care about constantly climbing a ladder. I don't care about advancing my career for the sake of advancing my career. I just want to enjoy my life, and working for a living is just my means to that end. If I'm making enough to be comfortable, I don't care about chasing a promotion or getting ahead of people. I can't…

If you are on the committee you should probably speak up and say something.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#317

Post by vineyardmike »

bsder wrote: post #148
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

Mentoring junior folks is a really big one that really needs in-person attention. It disappoints me that everybody is ignoring this. Sure, work-from-home is nice for senior folks like me who have lots of influence and have nurtured their career over several decades. We can allocate resources and people listen to us by virtue of position. For junior folks, work from home is terrible for their career. Nothing substitut…

So few people focus on junior employees! The junior employees on my team who onboard did in 2019 vs 2020 are much more than 1 year apart in terms of output and performance.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#318

Post by katbyte »

tkojames wrote: post #149
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My enjoyment of remote work has varied heavily based on the company culture, the type of work, and even my own evolving life circumstances. Having gone back and forth between in-office and WFH and between IC and manager in both circumstances, I have no doubts that in-office work is more productive than WFH. The only exceptions are when the office environment is truly terrible. WFH is more productive than being in an…

Very valid points. I went full remote 3 years ago and I really like it so far. Before had 25 min commute no traffic. I actually sometimes miss the time to just think by yourself. I took the wfh job because of the money and experience not for WFH. I think the key thing has been the entire company is remote all over the world. I think the hybrid model is just not going to work well. Either go all out WFH or not.

I take walks if I want that time to think :)

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#319

Post by Elora »

Some here are being honest, so I'll be brutally honest: Covid has upset the master-slave relationship, and they're realizing they're giving up too much control. Yes, even the supposedly forward-thinking, progressive tech world.

It's so much easier to ignore the BS of "company culture," "a new family" and other such nonsense when working remote. Plenty of people here have outright stated they work as a way to fund their lives and they couldn't care less about "the mission," "changing the world" and other similar lies. When WFH you only need to put on a show (and sometimes pants!) when on a video call, then you can relax and get your work done and shut out the BS.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#320

Post by delaynomore »

buzzert wrote: post #193
k-mcgrady wrote: post #60

"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the wo…

> The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. That's true, and I don't blame anyone for that. However, I don't think one should expect to enjoy all of the benefits of an extremely high performing company (i.e., RSUs of great value, high pay, prestige, etc.) if they approach work in this way. It sounds very entitled to say "I'm just here for the paycheck" but expect all of the…

>However, I don't think one should expect to enjoy all of the benefits of an extremely high performing company (i.e., RSUs of great value, high pay, prestige, etc.) if they approach work in this way.

Why shouldn't I expected all the benefits (RSU/base pay/free food if that's included)? It was all agreed upon when I started the job.

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