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The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

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Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#301

Post by tomp »

louhike wrote: post #178
mreiland wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated. You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves. The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly lo…

They did not win, they just managed to be listened to. Women still have more difficulties than men. And telling that is not saying that men do not have problems.

> Women still have more difficulties than men.

I think the above statement needs to be qualified. It's most likely true in most of the third world, but in the developed world, women enjoy many of the advantages that men don't, so it's really hard to claim who has more difficulties...

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#302

Post by dragonwriter »

tomp wrote: post #300
DanBC wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists Ou don't think it has anything to do with the vast numbers of women killed by men? Very few men are murdered by their wives. While domestic abuse from women against men is important please don't make the mistake of saying the levels of severity of violence is the same.

> While domestic abuse from women against men is important please don't make the mistake of saying the levels of severity of violence is the same. The parent wasn't. S/he said: > The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists which is true regardless of the statistics; under the US rules (AFAIK), police must arrest someone as a result of a domestic violence cal…

> under the US rules (AFAIK), police must arrest someone as a result of a domestic violence call, and the guidance is that they must arrest the "primary aggressor", the person who is bigger, stronger, etc. - deemed more dangerous (i.e. the man), regardless of who's actually being violent.

There's several errors in this:

(1) There aren't really one set of "US rules" on this level of specificity for domestic violence calls, (2) Under the Constitution, arrests without probable cause are forbidden, and the mere fact of a call will not always support probable cause, so insofar as there are "US rules", they prohibit the form of "must arrest" rules described, (3) Where rules do require arrest of the primary aggressor in cases of mutual combat in domestic violence, the rules for determining who the "primary aggressor" is generally do not consider "who is bigger, stronger, etc.", but instead consider the actual injuries that have been inflicted in the particular case, past history of domestic violence of domestic violence complaints, and whether one party's violence was in self defense or defence of others. A few also include consideration of the potential future injuries as well as those other factors, which is the closest thing to the "deemed more dangerous" standard you propose that might way against men. [0]

None allow arrests of one party regardless of who is actually being violent, as you claim.

[0] a state-by-state breakdown of relevant statutes is at http://www.bwjp.org/files/bwjp/articles/Primary_Aggressor_Ch...

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#303

Post by dragonwriter »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #137
bakhy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could start listing examples of injustices, each one of us could find them, and we would only get farther from finding any solution, or farther from just having a meaningful discussion. I am not negating that there are prejudice against men. I simply wish to point out the obvious - these prejudice are a product of patriarchy. It was not feminism that painted the picture of the man as incompetent parent. It is a ve…

>These prejudice are a product of patriarchy. No. E.g. The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists. There are many other similar prejudices now. So it's simply dishonest to pretend that feminism has had no influence on family law, education, or many other areas where boys and men are struggling.

> The aggressively anti-male prejudice baked into domestic violence law is entirely the work of feminists.

Specific (i.e., with citations to the actual law) examples of this alleged anti-male prejudice are called for in support of this claim.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#304

Post by tomp »

DanBC wrote: post #168
parennoob wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs. What is vaguely frustrating about that? The thesis of many commentators seems to be, "Of course men are going to commit suicide. Society often acts in ways strongly unfavorable towards them.", which may possibly not align with your views. I see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur. I think it is already acceptable for men to seek hel…

> see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur There's a difference between saying "here's a bunch of stuff that makes it harder for men" (not MRAs) and saying "women did it" (MRAs). There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it". That view isn't supported by the statistics which show higher rates of completed suicide by men for many many years, since before feminist movem…

> Why did so many men die from testicular cancer? They do not seek help when they find a lump on a testicle. We had extensive campaigns to get men to see a doctor when they find a lump to help reduce the death rate from testicular cancer.

Did we? I don't recall people wearing anything in support of testicular cancer awareness, but many frequently wear pink ribbons. I also don't really recall a campaign from my childhood, except one (1) occasion when doctors told us (university student) to self-inspect our balls.

Maybe it's better in the US, though.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#305

Post by tomp »

kaitai wrote: post #191
beachstartup wrote: post #21

look, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose was disposability - through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities). let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i did…

Women have been disposable throughout history too. Even in societies that respected women, maternal mortality (death during childbirth) was pretty common (and still is in the US). In societies that didn't like having so many women, abortion or infanticide were/are common (see sex ratios in China and India today). Men get killed in wars and at work. Women get killed in wars and having babies. Both are exposed to diffe…

I think the parent meant something different. Men were "disposable" in the sense that they went to fight wars (whereas women were only killed when the wars were lost, and even then many would just be raped/kidnapped, not killed). Women dying at childbirth had nothing to do with cultural norms, it was simply incurable (until recently).

Statistics show that 60% of women reproduced, historically, as opposed to 40% of men. Now, it's possible that there's some artefact in the data, but the obvious explanation confirms parent's logic.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#306

Post by mreiland »

normloman wrote: post #277
mreiland wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, it's mens fault. This is exactly the problem. Instead of considering what it would take to solve the problem you point the finger at men for no other reason than they aren't women.

Never said it was men's fault. I said the problem is society's skewed definition of masculinity. It's perpetuated by both men and women. The solution is implied: redefine what it means to be a man.

We've been redefining what it means to be a man and the suicide rates went up.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#307

Post by Nursie »

javert wrote: post #295
Nursie wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there's no good cake because bad cake exists? I'm not quite buying that.

Cake doesn't choose to call itself cake. Feminists choose to call themselves feminists, and thereby associate themselves with bad feminists. But let's not quibble here--- most feminists are collectivists advocating for what they perceive as their in-group at the expense of others. There are very few self-professed feminists who would be good, were it merely not for the label. Also, the reason you can't understand is…

No, it was not an honest attempt to understand your point, it was an attempt to ridicule your facile, ridiculous non-point.

I'd love to see your study on what most feminists advocate, it would make fascinating reading, what was your methodology?

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#308

Post by smorrow »

Nursie wrote: post #229
smorrow wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good for people's mental health. No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health. And women are secretly happy to see that their man still has what it takes to attract other women, isn't lying to himself about his nature, etc.

Oh dear god you talk a lot of bullshit - "No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health." Grow up.

heh. Is there any part of that that's concretely not true? Humans all over the world have come up with it independently -- I dunno, unless Muslims and Mormons shared notes.

I could even go further and claim it to be an almost pan-mammalian truth.

Men and women are different. Especially when it comes to sex.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#309

Post by Nursie »

smorrow wrote: post #308
Nursie wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dear god you talk a lot of bullshit - "No one woman can provide the amount of sex a man physically needs for his mental health." Grow up.

heh. Is there any part of that that's concretely not true? Humans all over the world have come up with it independently -- I dunno, unless Muslims and Mormons shared notes. I could even go further and claim it to be an almost pan-mammalian truth. Men and women are different. Especially when it comes to sex.

No, they're not that different, no you don't need more sex than one woman can give you to remain mentally healthy, as evidenced by all the not-crazy monogamists. You're an idiot.

If you want more than one partner, go for it, become a polyamorist. Lots of men and women do.

But your generalisations and your attitude towards women are childish, you need to grow up.

Re: The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills

#310

Post by smorrow »

ceejayoz wrote: post #194
smorrow wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. A woman raping, in terms of actual consequences, isn't the same thing as a man raping. If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me o…

> Having sex with someone without their consent is rape, but that doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing. Yes, it does. > If a woman "raped" me, didn't get pregnant by it, didn't give me any skanky diseases, and didn't publicly accuse me of being the rapist, then I'd probably enjoy it. Jesus Christ.

Having the same name as an often-violent crime doesn't automatically mean something is that bad.

Squashing an insect and setting a mouse trap are technically killing, but there's nothing wrong with them.

I think you first need to admit that it's at least conceivably possible that your emotion overreaction is compromising your objectivity on this subject.

Unless she's bending it, squeezing them, or using a strap-on, the woman thing is a complete non-issue in terms of actual consequences. If men and women are different, I just can't see how a woman raping is supposed to be equally as bad as a man raping.

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