The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#301

Post by TranquilMarmot » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:06 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #197

willis936 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CP2077 appears shallow on the surface. Compared to Deus Ex the gameplay feels shallow. Story wise though... I'm not sure playing as a terrorist who detonated a nuke in a city and rose from the dead to finish the job is well within the "playing it safe" area of current storytelling.

And, honestly, outside of the main story the setting is absolutely dripping with theme and care - buggy the game may be, but poorly written it is not (in most cases - there were definitely some misses). Hell, cyberpsychosis, a pretty plot-minor series of encounters, delves into one of the more interesting considerations in the game. That a fair number of people are unable to handle the implant tech at all and lose th…

I picked it up on sale after the recent 1.5 big huge update and after something like 75 hours, I haven't really encountered any glaring bugs and have loved it. Glad I didn't pick it up at launch otherwise my opinion may have been soured.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#302

Post by TranquilMarmot » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:09 PM UTC

zrav wrote: post #213

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power. It let players explore heterosexual and homosexual romantic relationships in first person and uncensored. Character writing is for the most part top-notch. The universe is unfailingly coherent and incredibly fleshed out. Few games have moved me to the point of tears in the credits, but this one di…

Just as the Witcher games are basically fan fiction paying homage to Sapkowskis books, CP2077 needs to be seen as a homage to many classics of the cyberpunk genre. Neuromancer, Snow Crash, Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell to name a few obvious ones (I also see a lot of Elysium in it, FWIW). The story CD Projekt synthesized based on the concepts of these works is very fitting and surprisingly consistent, IMO. And beca…

Isn't it based off of the Cyberpunk TTRPG?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_(role-playing_game)

I also loved the game. Really don't understand all the hate it received.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#303

Post by bpiche » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:12 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #73

hajile wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should read Snow Crash. While Neuromancer created the style, Snow Crash added in a lot of missing elements and had the benefit of being written 8 years later and by someone with some with a lot more knowledge of computing.

I tried reading it, and couldn't get in to it. It tried to be funny but wasn't (to my taste), and just seemed very childish. I liked Neuromancer and Count Zero much more.

I feel like it's just a very self aware parody of the genre at the end of its natural life, looking back at the previous 10 years of peak cultural cyberpunk

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#304

Post by themadturk » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:14 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #167

scrapheap wrote: post #15

If you liked Neuromancer then you should read True Names by Vernor Vinge.

It's impressive because it's ~3 years before Neuromancer, and in many ways it's a better predictor of "the internet" as a cultural thing. It nails a lot of the social aspects of online forums, for instance. It lacks the raw style of Neuromancer, alas.

It helps that Vinge is a computer scientist; he probably had a better view of what was coming down the pike than Gibson did. And no, he's a solid writer, but not the stylist Gibson was (and, actually, still is).

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#305

Post by layer8 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC

nahuel0x wrote: post #294

William Gibson was inspired by Jean “Moebius” Giraud, check this quote from the man himself: > “So it’s entirely fair to say, and I’ve said it before, that the way Neuromancer-the-novel “looks” was influenced in large part by some of the artwork I saw in ‘Heavy Metal’. I assume that this must also be true of John Carpenter’s ‘Escape from New York’, Ridley Scott’s ‘Blade Runner’”, and all other artefacts of the style…

Also Star Wars: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/meet-the-man-who-h...

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#306

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:20 PM UTC

nimithryn wrote: post #269

mmaunder wrote: post #68

I’m constantly amazed at how Metaverse aficionados quote Snow Crash and and other 1990s works as cornerstones of cyberspace, when Gibson invented the term and Neuromancer was written in 1984. Gibson is the original. The passage where Case connects to the matrix (also a Gibson term) again for the first time once his nervous system is repaired is heartbreakingly beautiful. I relate to it as a young phone phreak growing…

The writing is beautiful, but I think Neuromancer has failed to capture a modern audience due to some of the stylistic choices Gibson makes (I’m not necessarily arguing they are bad decisions - I personally enjoyed the style - although I think one could argue that). For instance, Gibson frequently skips exposition, and he delivers the narrative with a disconnected, stream-of-consciousness feel that is meant to evoke…

I found Snow Crash to be really childish, and not even in the same league as Neuromancer.

I read Neuromancer originally in 1984 and again a few years ago, and for me it still holds up. It's not the greatest book or anything, and I found Count Zero to be much better, but apart from those two books I've yet to read anything else cyberpunkish that comes even remotely close.

Before someone mentions Greg Egan or Vernor Vinge, as they have elsewhere in the thread, I read a lot by these authors and didn't like them either. Way too dry, boring, and unimaginative for me. I know some people love them, but they're just not for me.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#307

Post by bpiche » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:21 PM UTC

nimithryn wrote: post #292

bpiche wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree, Snow Crash is interminably long, like most of Stephenson's books. Neuromancer's whole Ocean's 11 Straylight run job is a very clean story. edit: A lot of Gibson's stream of consciousness writing style can be attributed to the effect of beat writers like Burroughs on him. It's unique but it's also an intentional stylistic decision. Not really an attempt to capture the aesthetics of logging into the…

To each his own, but I don’t think the length of the book has anything to do with the clarity of the narrative. And I’m definitely not arguing that Stephenson writes novels that are less confusing than Gibson in general (I liked Anathem! But cmon) I’m just arguing that the style in Snow Crash spells out what’s going on more literally than in Neuromancer.

I'm not using this reply to agree or disagree, I just want to share this piece of internet archeology with you. If you're interested in comparing and contrasting great cyberpunk authors, the esteemed Rudy Rucker himself did this in an interview with punk-cyber legend R U Sirius (of R U A Cyberpunk? meme fame) on his blog back in the day https://www.acceler8or.com/2012/02/cyberpunk-sfmathematics-l...

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#308

Post by philipkglass » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #215

tomc1985 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power. It let players explore heterosexual and homosexual romantic relationships in first person and uncensored. Character writing is for the most part top-notch. The universe is unfailingly coherent and incredibly fleshed out. Few games have moved me to the point of tears in the credits, but this one di…

> "It was a fantastic game that spent a lot of time ruminating on topics like transhumanism, sex, and corporate power" I can't say anything about C2077 because I haven't played it, I can just repeat what Gibson said about it. And he didn't play it either, he was just judging the trailer. What I can say is to note the three things you mentioned, "transhumanism, sex and corporate power" are also explored in other highl…

I found Altered Carbon significantly different from and more thoughtful than the TV adaptation, as I commented here a few years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16348681

Richard K. Morgan's Altered Carbon books (as well as his Black Man, published as Thirteen in North America) are very angry and bleak in tone, from what I recall. (But they were not angry at technology itself, the way the characters of the Altered Carbon TV series were; in-universe characters weren't trying to eliminate the cortical stack in the books.) They also have some spectacular action sequences, which is probably why they were picked up for TV. They have some horrific tortures (both in VR and out of it), much worse than shown in the TV adaptation, which is why I haven't re-read them like I did Neuromancer.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#309

Post by walrus01 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:23 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #306

nimithryn wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writing is beautiful, but I think Neuromancer has failed to capture a modern audience due to some of the stylistic choices Gibson makes (I’m not necessarily arguing they are bad decisions - I personally enjoyed the style - although I think one could argue that). For instance, Gibson frequently skips exposition, and he delivers the narrative with a disconnected, stream-of-consciousness feel that is meant to evoke…

I found Snow Crash to be really childish, and not even in the same league as Neuromancer . I read Neuromancer originally in 1984 and again a few years ago, and for me it still holds up. It's not the greatest book or anything, and I found Count Zero to be much better, but apart from those two books I've yet to read anything else cyberpunkish that comes even remotely close. Before someone mentions Greg Egan or Vernor V…

Snow Crash is in many places meant to be intentionally silly and absurdist as an extrapolated, exaggerated satire on contemporary American lifestyle at the time it was written, such as in the users manual for the "Reason" railgun

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#310

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:25 PM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #296

jvanderbot wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't like snow crash. Does that make me an outlier? The whole thing was silly and far too jrpg for my taste. I mean, stealing the whole "skitchn" thing and slapping "Smooth move, ex lax" on a car when they try to shake you is just campy. "Poor impulse control" -- just slapstick comedy at that point.

It felt like a hyperactive 14 year old’s anime fanfiction. Fun for five pages, but when that tone keeps going, my brain just ends up feeling burnt out.

My feeling exactly. I don't get why adults would like this book.