The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#291

Post by soco » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:53 PM UTC

throw1234651234 wrote: post #30

the__alchemist wrote: post #10

I finished reading Neuromancer a week ago. I'd played Cyberpunk 2077 recently, and Dystopia further back. So many of the concepts from those games appear to come directly from Neuromancer! I stumbled upon articles implying they were indirectly influenced; Neuromancer evidently created a whole genre! Btw, compared to hard scifi like Stephenson (relevant comparison due to Snow Crash), Neuromacer isn't really there; its…

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

I loved the Jean le Flambeur trilogy of Hannu Rajaniemi. It's a similar experience to reading Neuromancer in the 80s.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#292

Post by nimithryn » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

bpiche wrote: post #274

nimithryn wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writing is beautiful, but I think Neuromancer has failed to capture a modern audience due to some of the stylistic choices Gibson makes (I’m not necessarily arguing they are bad decisions - I personally enjoyed the style - although I think one could argue that). For instance, Gibson frequently skips exposition, and he delivers the narrative with a disconnected, stream-of-consciousness feel that is meant to evoke…

I have to disagree, Snow Crash is interminably long, like most of Stephenson's books. Neuromancer's whole Ocean's 11 Straylight run job is a very clean story. edit: A lot of Gibson's stream of consciousness writing style can be attributed to the effect of beat writers like Burroughs on him. It's unique but it's also an intentional stylistic decision. Not really an attempt to capture the aesthetics of logging into the…

To each his own, but I don’t think the length of the book has anything to do with the clarity of the narrative. And I’m definitely not arguing that Stephenson writes novels that are less confusing than Gibson in general (I liked Anathem! But cmon) I’m just arguing that the style in Snow Crash spells out what’s going on more literally than in Neuromancer.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#293

Post by bpiche » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #205

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

> And nothing can be more conformist and anti-punk than lazily copying a now classic aesthetic and doing nothing else with it. In Pattern Recognition, the character Cayce is “allergic” to Tommy Hilfiger clothing because the style is so completely generic. Your comment makes me wonder if that was a commentary on the works derived from his initial vision in the Sprawl trilogy.

Cayce's black bomber jacket and Fruit of the Loom shirts and black Levis make a terrific outfit. The mil spec sneakers in that same series are described with similar care.

But beyond mil spec, the whole Blue Ant series is just a beautiful tableau of different fashions and designed objects. Made me really want a Curta.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#294

Post by nahuel0x » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:54 PM UTC

William Gibson was inspired by Jean “Moebius” Giraud, check this quote from the man himself:

> “So it’s entirely fair to say, and I’ve said it before, that the way Neuromancer-the-novel “looks” was influenced in large part by some of the artwork I saw in ‘Heavy Metal’. I assume that this must also be true of John Carpenter’s ‘Escape from New York’, Ridley Scott’s ‘Blade Runner’”, and all other artefacts of the style sometimes dubbed ‘cyberpunk’. Those French guys, they got their end in early.”

In particular, "The Long Tomorrow" by Moebius/Dan O'Bannon published in 1977 on Heavy Metal magazine was very influential to Gibson.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#295

Post by TranquilMarmot » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #249

mmaunder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a 38 year old metaphor. Neil Stephenson's Smartwheels don't exist either, and we still don't have "professional road surfers", but that doesn't make Snow Crash any less relevant: "Smartwheels use sonar, laser range finding and millimeter wave radar to identify mufflers and other debris. Each one consists of a hub with many tiny spokes. Each spoke telescopes into five sections. On the end is a squat foot, rubb…

I just don't like snow crash. Does that make me an outlier? The whole thing was silly and far too jrpg for my taste. I mean, stealing the whole "skitchn" thing and slapping "Smooth move, ex lax" on a car when they try to shake you is just campy. "Poor impulse control" -- just slapstick comedy at that point.

I always read Snow Crash as a bit of a parody. Over the top, but in a fun way. It's definitely not a serious novel like Neuromancer is.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#296

Post by grapeskin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #249

mmaunder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a 38 year old metaphor. Neil Stephenson's Smartwheels don't exist either, and we still don't have "professional road surfers", but that doesn't make Snow Crash any less relevant: "Smartwheels use sonar, laser range finding and millimeter wave radar to identify mufflers and other debris. Each one consists of a hub with many tiny spokes. Each spoke telescopes into five sections. On the end is a squat foot, rubb…

I just don't like snow crash. Does that make me an outlier? The whole thing was silly and far too jrpg for my taste. I mean, stealing the whole "skitchn" thing and slapping "Smooth move, ex lax" on a car when they try to shake you is just campy. "Poor impulse control" -- just slapstick comedy at that point.

It felt like a hyperactive 14 year old’s anime fanfiction.

Fun for five pages, but when that tone keeps going, my brain just ends up feeling burnt out.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#297

Post by sleepybrett » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 10:58 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #249

mmaunder wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're a 38 year old metaphor. Neil Stephenson's Smartwheels don't exist either, and we still don't have "professional road surfers", but that doesn't make Snow Crash any less relevant: "Smartwheels use sonar, laser range finding and millimeter wave radar to identify mufflers and other debris. Each one consists of a hub with many tiny spokes. Each spoke telescopes into five sections. On the end is a squat foot, rubb…

I just don't like snow crash. Does that make me an outlier? The whole thing was silly and far too jrpg for my taste. I mean, stealing the whole "skitchn" thing and slapping "Smooth move, ex lax" on a car when they try to shake you is just campy. "Poor impulse control" -- just slapstick comedy at that point.

it does not, it's a shit book. Diamond Age is better though.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#298

Post by TranquilMarmot » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:01 PM UTC

danielodievich wrote: post #272

So I really like this book and reread it every other year. High octane fun that tickles my programmer's fancy. I like really well made books, so the edition I have is the Easton Press https://www.eastonpress.com/signed-editions/william-gibson-n... , from Ebay although mine is unsigned. There is an a Suntup Editions version that is to drool over https://suntup.press/neuromancer , especially the Numbered Editions. Comp…

High quality?! No way, the best way to read Neuromancer is a shitty, beaten up, half-ripped copy you bought from a used bookstore a decade ago.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#299

Post by bpiche » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:03 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #7

Gravityloss wrote: post #2

I was sick at home and finally picked up the Neuromancer which had been sitting in the bookshelf for years. It was an experience indeed. At many points, very high concept (which of course has been copied to death). At other points, naive. Surprisingly few things felt old fashioned. The biggest let down was the unrealistic behavior and motivation of people. It felt very much like an adventure game where everything rev…

Early cyberpunk tends to be power fantasy wrapped in dystopia. So, Hellblazer with more blinking lights and megacorps instead of demons. And it bears remembering that Gibson was 34 when he wrote Neuromancer . You can see a shift in his characterization by the time he gets to Mona Lisa Overdrive (a book and 4 years later). And certainly with the subsequent Bridge trilogy. IMHO, the Sprawl trilogy that starts with Neur…

Personally I feel like the series only goes downhill with Count Zero and worse with Mona Lisa Overdrive, but they're both fine books. Count Zero does world building well, it's cool to see the BAMA eastern seaboard, but Bobby is not as compelling of a protagonist. If anything the simstim star Tally Isham is a lot more interesting but there's a lot of human trafficking adjacent stuff happening there too.

Don't remember Mona Lisa Overdrive very well but the whole A plot with the girl being protected because she has a modem in her head was a bit hard to follow. Though once again great world building. The B plot with an older Molly Millions delivering The Count's cybersarcophagus in the desert was cool af though.

edit: that's not to say they're not fine books

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#300

Post by vidarh » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 11:05 PM UTC

relaxing wrote: post #248

pmoriarty wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the descriptions of the metaverse are the parts of Neuromancer that hold up least well" I'd be interested in reading descriptions of cyberspace that are better than Neuromancer 's. So far I haven't found any.

Depends on your criteria, I guess. As a poetic fantasy, they are superb. But it's maddening how little sense they make as a way to navigate computer networks. (Why would you visualize servers and executing code in a 3D space that you have to physically navigate, when you could just... execute a command. Gibson's genius was recognizing that real computer hacking wasn't cinematic, and making up his own system.) I still…

It makes no sense now, but there were endless experiments with physical metaphors for interacting with computers. At the time it was just not settled that this was not right around the corner and workable.