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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#301

Post by backpocket »

labster wrote: post #293
grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating.

"Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#302

Post by pbhjpbhj »

belorn wrote: post #201
scott_s wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

Interesting. Looking at the kind of things people say in online games, almost every negative comment falls under sexual harassment. Homophobic comments, "you suck", comments about genitalia, neck beards, a comment about the sexual nature for which the person was born from... About the only type of harassment that do not qualify under sexual harassment is those that insult intelligence, ability to perform a task, and…

>almost every negative comment falls under sexual harassment //

This seems like a confusion between using swear/curse words and things being sexual. People swearing often say words that are also used to describe sexual acts by the use is akin to using homophones.

"You wanker!" isn't sexual, for example, unless there's particular context to make it that way.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#303

Post by grahamburger »

labster wrote: post #293
grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

That's exactly the 'interesting side effect' I was referring to. I try to compensate by 1) not interacting socially with most people at work, especially people who work for me (so there's not an in/out group) and 2) trying to make a conscious effort to have a good professional relationship with people I work with, as far as possible without it becoming social. IE I will have business discussions with everyone, but leave the personal anecdotes and social interaction at home. That leaves me being viewed as a little bit aloof and anti-social, which could be a problem except that I've always been viewed that way anyway so it comes naturally. But yeah, there are traps on both ends of that spectrum and littered through the middle and no clear cut solution.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#304

Post by clevernickname »

philovivero wrote: post #284
clevernickname wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite absolutely exists. I've had female bosses, professors, etc. that all the women loved and admired, while all the men agreed she was out to get them.

Are you certain of that? In my experience, women superficially will say glowing and great things about other women, but when the honesty comes out, there's vitriolic hatred. Women have a far more sophisticated sense of situation-appropriate speech. Men think of it as "two-faced," but it's just Machiavellian maneuvering. When taken at face value, it's easy to mistake women as having great respect and love for one-anot…

I get where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure in most of the cases I'm thinking about. Say, with women I was close enough to that we could have a great time privately talking shit about other professors, yet when it came to the "man hating" one almost all genuinely seemed to like or at least respect her.

EDIT: I was just thinking about how this professor would grade men worse than women for essentially the same answers and realized that you could make a pretty compelling case for early education (which is predominately staffed by women) being biased against boys, and cite the greater number of women that go on to enter higher education as a potential consequence of it. I wonder why nobody raises a stink about that.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#305

Post by bittercynic »

labster wrote: post #293
grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that.

If an adult is unable to recognize those basic signals, what training options are available to get up-to-speed?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#307

Post by ownagefool »

stcredzero wrote: post #273
ownagefool wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? Sure, some of us, like some woman, don't really care and will just shut it down, but many of us would just make an excuse so we're not outright rude. Either way, learn by being told, or learn by using empathy, if she doesn't counter offer it was a no. Once you've had your 3rd no, you're that creepy guy fyi.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? I'd give a straight-forward answer to a fellow adult, assuming she or he will take it in a rational and mature fashion. I certainly wouldn't say anything that could be confused on the surface with, "I would, but I can't."

Cool. You've now crippled the a girls self-esteem, where as using the nice way would give her the ability to lie to herself whilst making sure to never ask again.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#308

Post by Chris2048 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #258
I_HALF_CATS wrote: post #134

I investigated Vice for over six months for a book. Their media is so bad I regularly call it a liar's cult. It should be stated that Vice has no fact-checking process. They also rarely issue corrections. Read everything from them with caution. Here is an article where I fact-checked two documentaries with links to other fact checks. https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d482100116...

Ok, but for this story Vice is mostly recycling facts and stories reported elsewhere. It's a fact that Geoff Marcy was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that Christian Ott was disciplined for harassing women. It's a fact that women scientists are speaking on the record about these things. So I don't see how your comment is relevant to the article we're discussing.

It's relevant - maybe it's not all true, or recycled fact, so the repute of vice is relevant.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#309

Post by zyxley »

stcredzero wrote: post #271
scott_s wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is not to sound like "yes in principle" because they usually don't say yes, they typically say "Oh, I can't, I'm busy, I have to meet a friend for dinner". I have also been gender neutral in my pronouns because I'm a guy, I've been asked out by women I did not want to go out with, and it was awkward, and it would have felt worse to just say a simple "No, I'm not interested". But she picked up on that just fi…

This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. I've also been in situations where I properly took the information as literal, and this was the right thing to do. I associate this degree of social/mental gymnastics with Victorian England or the antebellum South, not rational people in 2016.

> This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted.

Given the number of people directly disagreeing with you here, I think you need to reevaluate your premise.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#310

Post by mathattack »

This sounds as bad as investment banks. Why are schools so behind the times? Accounting firms and Advertising agencies are cleaning up. Why are universities staying with the banks?

Is tenure part of the problem? That it's so hard to fire people for bad behavior?

Or is it that academic prestige is "Winner takes all" so schools choose to protect those who give them their reputation?

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