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Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

reuters.com

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Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#31

Post by osivertsson »

mattvot wrote: post #23
omegant wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't seem to be handling this very intelligently, more like a bully than anything else. It would be much easier to let Snowden get to a country in southamerica and then after some weeks press under the table to get him arrested. Now doing all this pressing all they get is Snowden in China or Russia's arms.

If you assume the goal of all this is to deter future leaks, I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Snowden has so much uncertainty and risk in the next few weeks that I bet borderline whistle-blowers are rethinking their plan. Arresting him quietly without the media gets them Snowden, but not the deterrent.

I think the opposite is true.

Whistle-blowers may be releasing information because of strong ethical objections, not rational thoughts about their own well-being.

I think watching this unfold with obvious lies from governments has actually strengthened the ethics in releasing this information, and may reinforce others with similar information that leaking really is the morally right thing to do.

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#33

Post by grey-area »

jgrahamc wrote: post #2

FlightRadar24 has the recorded track of his flight, FAB1, here: http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 The odd thing about the claim that Snowden was aboard is that FAB1 took off from Vnukovo but Snowden is apparently in Sheremetyevo. Here's a picture of plane turning round over Austria and then descending and landing in Vienna: http://i.imgur.com/cuUQkWV.jpg UPDATE: News reports say that FAB1 is leavi…

It's just taken off again, according to that site:

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#34

Post by zokier »

marvin wrote: post #25
zokier wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the plane forced to land Forced how? I doubt anybody would be willing to shoot a civilian plane down to get Snowden, especially if the plane in question was also carrying a president or other high ranking people. So the pilot could relatively safely ignore any demands to land.

They still have to refuel...

I guess I meant forced to land unexpectedly/unplanned.

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#35

Post by zokier »

vidarh wrote: post #16
acqq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to Spain: "9.27am BST Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...

They are not allowed to forcibly enter. But of course that does not stop bullying like this where they the "request" permission to enter while making it clear they won't allow him to fly through their airspace if he doesn't.

Which could/would cause as big of a diplomatic uproar as forcibly entering the plane.

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#36

Post by omegant »

osivertsson wrote: post #31
mattvot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you assume the goal of all this is to deter future leaks, I'd say they are doing a pretty good job. Snowden has so much uncertainty and risk in the next few weeks that I bet borderline whistle-blowers are rethinking their plan. Arresting him quietly without the media gets them Snowden, but not the deterrent.

I think the opposite is true. Whistle-blowers may be releasing information because of strong ethical objections, not rational thoughts about their own well-being. I think watching this unfold with obvious lies from governments has actually strengthened the ethics in releasing this information, and may reinforce others with similar information that leaking really is the morally right thing to do.

Also the next guy maybe will leak anonimously, if that's possible with all that Prism systems. Maybe creating some downtime in the system while the leak is produced??

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#37

Post by cskau »

kkkaaa wrote: post #5

imagine the chinese would force Obama to land in Bolivia because they think he is carrying Ai Weiwei.

The Extradition Treaties states that one of the many things you can be extradited for is "unlawful imprisonment". Realizing that, I figure the world community at large could request to have say Bush and/or Obama extradited for the things going on in Guantanamo.

Of course they might object that these fellows enjoy diplomatic immunity and that it's completely ludicrous. But if this incident has shown us anything I believe it's that US & Friends really don't care much about such minor details.

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#38

Post by smackay »

viraptor wrote: post #15
kriro wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not even aware that site exists. Pretty fascinating stuff, thx for posting. I'm surprised Poland let him pass if Snowden was really supposed to be on board. US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Russia->South America without clashing with the US seems like an interesting problem. If Italy,France,Spain,Portugal is blocked you pretty much have to take a giant detour, go through Africa or try flying out e…

> US-Polish relations are generally pretty good. Are they that good? I got an impression they were pretty good while Poland was still promised things like joining the visa waiver program. Now I think many people are quite annoyed at the outcome / delaying for years. The whole project of rocket interception sites is also bringing up some interesting questions lately.

I think you are seeing the "true" influence of government to government relations, rather than the general sentiment on the street or the empty rhetoric from officials. France made a big noise about the spying allegations but quickly blocked access to its airspace.

Personally, the action by France and Portugal this made this whole web of deceit even more unpalatable. Time for a few leaders to grow a pair.

Re: Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

#39

Post by alan_cx »

mtgx wrote: post #21
petercooper wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was actually briefly discussed between the UK and US in the 70s: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wilson-wanted-uk-to-be-us-...

That's funny, going from wanting to be the US' "51st state" to not even wanting to be a full EU member, which I think makes a lot more sense (to be one).

In general.....

The anti EU people in the UK see the EU as socialist, liberal and left wing. The anti EU people in the UK are...... you guessed it... right wing. Fairly extreme right in UK terms, but probably still left wing by US standards. So, for them, the US is an aspiration further right.

IMHO, the EU makes total sense, even if there are many problems with it, and even the US government have urged the UK to get more in to Europe and stop antagonizing it. Partly I think the US likes having the UK as a gateway to Europe. I just wish we in the UK got more out of that deal than we do, like equality and fairness in our deals.

Right now, despite my criticism of the US, I'd prefer to be a 51st state, since we'd Brits would no longer have no rights over US excesses. We could sue "our" government, or what ever Americans do!!! Ah, nonsense of course, we need to get on in Europe better.

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