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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#291

Post by rhacker »

URSpider94 wrote: post #85
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

I think the reason they think it's subsidizing the rich enclaves is because they believe the rich enclaves aren't really working - they're just generating revenue from information advantage. We're just building systems of control and making money from it. Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig. What is work? And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for that pig that they had to raise for 6 months?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#292

Post by philwelch »

sofixa wrote: post #100
philwelch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s explained in their FAQ: > Idahoans are very concerned about keeping their state as conservative as possible. They had 2.46 conservative votes per liberal vote in the 2016 presidential election, but eastern Washington only had 1.43. > Moreover, eastern Washington has a population of 1.6 million in 2017, as compared to Idaho’s population of 1.7 million. Idahoans don’t want to be outvoted by others in their own sta…

Isn't it sad that they directly state they want to do this for party reasons? Like, "we only want people who vote for that party in our state". As someone from a country that isn't basically a dual one-party state, it rubs me off as very weird and very anti-freedom, liberty, logic, etc.

I don’t see it as sad at all.

There’s a certain philosophy of government and system of laws that most residents of Idaho and eastern Oregon would prefer to live under. There is a different and fundamentally incompatible philosophy of government and system of laws that most residents of the Portland metropolitan area would prefer to live under. If the goal of a democracy is to enable the largest number of people to live under the laws and philosophy of government they prefer, this is a move in the right direction.

The only alternative is for two increasingly polarized parties to try and impose their preferences on the other half of the country. That rubs me as very weird and anti-freedom compared to just embracing federalism.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#293

Post by light_hue_1 »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #37
abnry wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if what you have in mind is like what Germany was before it was unified. Lots of city states that essentially ally together or don't. I don't think it is a stable situation once someone gains the means to conquer by force.

But if everyone agrees to prevent conquering-by-force, why wouldn't it work?

It doesn't work because of externalities. Like, you live in a city state, that's great, but the rural county that your water comes from decided to elect Trump as their leader-for-life and he decided that all water should now contain uranium and lead to ward off COVID-25. Good luck living!

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#294

Post by whatisthiseven »

buzzert wrote: post #158
joshka wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can’t these programs exist while also having drugs be illegal? How would you make that work? Consider if drugs are illegal, then getting medical help / detox requires admission of guilt. This seems like a fifth amendment problem.

Why should you have to admit anything to get treatment? Is that some kind of medical requirement I’m unaware of?

How should a doctor know how to treat you if you don't tell them what caused the problems? Doctors don't just hear you list a bunch of things you are "feeling" as symptoms and then output a pill to take. They need to look at your overall health, wellbeing, symptoms, medicine you are taking, diet, etc.

You can't just show up to a hospital with crack or heroin withdrawl and be like "I don't feel well, please help me". They are going to ask why you don't feel well.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#295

Post by DFHippie »

BobbyJo wrote: post #248
ABeeSea wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you start with the basis that the government will force private companies to take on customers that can't pay for service, EMTALA already does this and I don’t see a push on the right to repeal EMTALA. Universal healthcare is a more efficient model of what is already happening.

I also don't see a push from republicans to repeal social security. That doesn't mean it isn't a socialist policy.

Here:

https://www.brookings.edu/research/why-the-2005-social-secur...

It wasn't sold as a push to repeal Social Security, because that polls extremely badly, but that's what it was.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#296

Post by ed25519FUUU »

rhacker wrote: post #184
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I own land in a rural area (house coming in maybe a year) and I have spoken to the neighbors. For the most part it's little things actually. Rules that the major cities deal with, like not being allowed to put up a specific kind of fence because the bureaucrats in the city look at .1 acre plots of land and don't like how certain fences look - where out here we're dealing with 5 to 100 acres (and in some cases a 40000…

> One guy had to dismantle a building he erected (he's a builder) because he maxed out on "how much roof" he can have.

Please tell me what part of the country this is so I can avoid it.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#297

Post by mensetmanusman »

foota wrote: post #194
ipaddr wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The need for many government programs (money spent on enforcing hollywood copyright) and the tax rules that create corporate wealth but cost other areas must be considered. The midwest could do away with many expensive budget items but are forced to pay a share. The wealth of the nation could flip if heavy import duties were imposed forcing a manufacturing back inhouse. Things are the way they are because the powerfu…

> The wealth of the nation could flip if heavy import duties were imposed forcing a manufacturing back inhouse. You mean the wealth of the nation would decrease?

Any quality would decrease, and some people value that, so in that argument the wealth of the nation would increase.

Most all the income and productivity gains from globalization and go to the wealthy, so if they lost billions of dollars, it is true that the nation would be less “”wealthy””…

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#298

Post by Enginerrrd »

teclordphrack2 wrote: post #195
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

The main driving force is that the rural residence are the remnants of the racist that moved to that area even pre-statehood. They don't like that their white power is fading and they want control.

This is not only baseless, but incredibly inflammatory and dehumanizing. Hackernews is not the place for this type of comment.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#299

Post by throwaway0a5e »

Pfhreak wrote: post #129
ericmay wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk, why not just break up Oregon a little bit? I don't have a dog in this fight, but... why are we so adamant about clinging to certain structures even if they don't work for people? You might say "but not everybody agrees with this move..." well sure but at what point do we say the will of the general population matters more without appealing to some higher authority like the U.S. to implement rules that you agree…

Because America is balanced on a knife's edge, and the Senate and Electoral college basically runs the show. If you introduce a new state that leans blue, that's two more blue senators and N more electoral college votes for a blue president. Republicans will staunchly oppose this. And vice versa. If the senate were proportional to population, and if the electoral college were likewise apportioned via popular vote, th…

It shouldn't be hard to divy up states (granted you might have to cut a state into more than two parts in some cases) in a way that results in no net gain for either party. It's a simple math problem.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#300

Post by mensetmanusman »

CountDrewku wrote: post #263
hackyhacky wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reading comprehension skills are terrible. 1. In this hypothetical situation, the cheaper food comes from abroad, now that there are no import tariffs. 2. I never said subsidies aren't necessary: I don't know how you can infer that point from what I wrote. I said that subsidies exist to protect American farmers, so American farmers should stop complaining about those who fund them. American farming is as profita…

I think you need to read up on why the subsidies were started in the first place because you're obviously clueless. The rest of your argument is laden with all sorts of cognitive dissonance. Subsidies are given for things like food because if a society doesn't of have food it's a really bad thing so the government props up the industry in bad times (in this case during the Great Depression) and we don't starve. It's…

After Covid, I never thought I would see an argument for why all of the nation’s food should be grown in another country…
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