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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#121

Post by listless »

buzzert wrote: post #113
joshka wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have rational data that would present this viewpoint as otherwise? How about helping us liberals understand the conservative viewpoint better if you have insight on this. Edit: please don't downvote based on disagreement - write something instead. This is a reasonable question asking to further understand the conservative viewpoint. Case in point, I'm upvoting buzzert's comments because they present a contrary…

One particular example might be Oregon’s decision to decriminalize all drugs[0] during a time when overdoses are at an all time high[1] and increasing over 40% in just the last year. You might say the political party who calls the war on drugs “cruel and inhumane” is acting on emotion rather than reason in spite of all the statistics. [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2021/02/drug-decriminal... [1]: https://w…

Another _could_ be letting people in Portland tear the city apart with impunity.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#122

Post by yesBoot »

buzzert wrote: post #113
joshka wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have rational data that would present this viewpoint as otherwise? How about helping us liberals understand the conservative viewpoint better if you have insight on this. Edit: please don't downvote based on disagreement - write something instead. This is a reasonable question asking to further understand the conservative viewpoint. Case in point, I'm upvoting buzzert's comments because they present a contrary…

One particular example might be Oregon’s decision to decriminalize all drugs[0] during a time when overdoses are at an all time high[1] and increasing over 40% in just the last year. You might say the political party who calls the war on drugs “cruel and inhumane” is acting on emotion rather than reason in spite of all the statistics. [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2021/02/drug-decriminal... [1]: https://w…

The war on drugs put people in prison for emotional belief those people were morally inferior.

It rightly so should be abolished.

To be replaced with trained medical help, detox programs, and a conversation about morality not tethered to superstition, or black and white judgments.

But the fundies, acting out of emotion, prefer boxes.

It’s all emotion since humans are motivated by such. It’s the outcome that should be judged.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#123

Post by rurp »

buzzert wrote: post #113
joshka wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have rational data that would present this viewpoint as otherwise? How about helping us liberals understand the conservative viewpoint better if you have insight on this. Edit: please don't downvote based on disagreement - write something instead. This is a reasonable question asking to further understand the conservative viewpoint. Case in point, I'm upvoting buzzert's comments because they present a contrary…

One particular example might be Oregon’s decision to decriminalize all drugs[0] during a time when overdoses are at an all time high[1] and increasing over 40% in just the last year. You might say the political party who calls the war on drugs “cruel and inhumane” is acting on emotion rather than reason in spite of all the statistics. [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2021/02/drug-decriminal... [1]: https://w…

Except that the evidence mostly points towards harsh drug laws having a net negative effect on people's lives. The logic of "drugs are bad" -> "we should outlaw drugs" without looking at the real world effects is the more emotion based argument.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#124

Post by HDMI_Cable »

justinlink wrote: post #105
HDMI_Cable wrote: post #82

What’s the likeliness of this happening? The greateridaho.org website says this has happened before, but at a smaller degree. Is this legal, or just symbolic?

Not very likely to happen. Would take a lot of votes where they would be in the minority to go there way. Borders between states do change on small scales. Since the 1940's: 1950: Kansas and Missouri exchanged land along the Missouri River due to flooding in 1944. 1961: 20 acres of land was transferred from Minnesota to North Dakota 1977: Texas and Mexico exchanged some parcels of land. 1998: Supreme Court gave part…

Huh, thanks. Even though it’s a long shot, it seems really interesting.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#125

Post by tastyfreeze »

buerkle wrote: post #81
tastyfreeze wrote: post #48

My first reaction was that this is against Article IV Section III of the Constitution. But, reading it again shifting borders of existing states doesn't seem to be prohibited. It would be interesting to see how something like this actually played out.

There is precedence. Maine broke off from Massachusetts in the early 1800s and West Virginia from Virginia at the start of the Civil War.

Splitting states is specifically addressed in the section. It just takes a vote of the involve state legislatures and Congress.

Moving counties from one state to another doesn't require Congress be involved as no state is created or destroyed. I assume that legislatures of both states would need to agree to the border change but it isn't something that is addressed.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#126

Post by joshka »

GongOfFour wrote: post #88
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon

What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?

> 3. Low Tax

The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), which tend to be outside of the counties in this idea.

> 5. Thriving Economy ... low unemployment

Economy is a second order effect. How does having a low unemployment affect the number of jobs in the actual areas? Cause and effect are reversed in this claim.

> 6. Representation: ... But our reps would be in the ruling party in Idaho

I think the word is "governing", this is a little confused about the difference.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#127

Post by mjevans »

GongOfFour wrote: post #88
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

That's more informative than the article was, thank you.

Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community".

The issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and dis-enfranchisement of displaced people all relate to failed social safety nets and social planning. My understanding is that decades ago, in the early 80s IIRC, a terrible abuse and system for housing the mentally ill was disbanded. Unfortunately nothing took it's place.

There are also very troubling issues related to lack of housing, lack of jobs, and lack of a proper program to connect displaced individuals with that type of societal re-integration. A New "New Deal", in any form, could enrich the value of society by re-educating and providing jobs which enrich the commons of society thus improving the lives and economic fitness of all. Better those handouts from our taxes trickle up to the rich, as all else currently does, than go directly to their coffers in tax cuts.

Point 3, and probably 5 as well: The report I suggested would be the best way of understanding this issue for everyone. The issue is Taxes VS Benefits; not absolute tax taken. Until the balance of benefits to taxes is understood this is a straw man which needs more data for all sides to understand.

Point 5: Regulation in specific. Ideally regulation prevents more problems than it causes. Regulation should allow assumptions about fitness for use, safety, and fairness to all parties involved to exist. If there is some regulation which does not contribute to this common good, to the preservation of the commons, or if there is a lack of regulation which is resulting in abuse, then said regulations should be revisited by the representatives of the people.

6: "the ruling party" I take this as slang for the currently dominant political party, but it is strikingly 'Us' vs 'Them' and very divisively secessionist. Extremely misguided. Reform of our electoral systems and categorization of representation should be undertaken to finally liberate all citizens from the First Past The Post voting system to ANY kind of instant runoff. We need to have a spectrum of political parties to promote compromise and plans that work for many rather than for few.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#128

Post by thepasswordis »

URSpider94 wrote: post #85
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death.

If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful.

You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is given in life.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#129

Post by Pfhreak »

ericmay wrote: post #19
pcan77 wrote: post #4

Why not just move to Idaho then? Or some other red state?

Idk, why not just break up Oregon a little bit? I don't have a dog in this fight, but... why are we so adamant about clinging to certain structures even if they don't work for people? You might say "but not everybody agrees with this move..." well sure but at what point do we say the will of the general population matters more without appealing to some higher authority like the U.S. to implement rules that you agree…

Because America is balanced on a knife's edge, and the Senate and Electoral college basically runs the show.

If you introduce a new state that leans blue, that's two more blue senators and N more electoral college votes for a blue president. Republicans will staunchly oppose this. And vice versa.

If the senate were proportional to population, and if the electoral college were likewise apportioned via popular vote, then maybe you could be more flexible with state boundaries.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#130

Post by standardUser »

buzzert wrote: post #113
joshka wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have rational data that would present this viewpoint as otherwise? How about helping us liberals understand the conservative viewpoint better if you have insight on this. Edit: please don't downvote based on disagreement - write something instead. This is a reasonable question asking to further understand the conservative viewpoint. Case in point, I'm upvoting buzzert's comments because they present a contrary…

One particular example might be Oregon’s decision to decriminalize all drugs[0] during a time when overdoses are at an all time high[1] and increasing over 40% in just the last year. You might say the political party who calls the war on drugs “cruel and inhumane” is acting on emotion rather than reason in spite of all the statistics. [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2021/02/drug-decriminal... [1]: https://w…

Anyone who genuinely wants fewer people to die from drug use will support drug legalization.
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