NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#291

Post by bigbubba » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

seppin wrote: post #285

bigbubba wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the scope of your consideration is a bit narrow. Lockheed Martin probably isn't very interested in stealing technology from Sukhoi to clone and put in their own jets. However it seems quite likely that Lockheed has an interest in the particulars of Sukhoi jets, their weapon systems, radars and EW systems, and airframe capabilities, so that Lockheed may better design systems meant to counter those systems. Cer…

You also don't ever stay on top by stealing/copying from others. By definition that always puts you (at least) 1 generation behind.

In simple scenarios with two actors perhaps, but I don't think that holds true for complex scenarios with multiple participants. Somebody who steals the best from everybody and is always one generation behind the state of the art in every regard may still prevail against all others because they are a Jack of all trades, master of none.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#292

Post by seppin » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

fakedang wrote: post #289

seppin wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does not have HUMINT against them I mean, perhaps not on the ground in Israel (which amounts to a small technicality). They still keep tabs on Israel activity everywhere else. Allies in general don't mind being spied on, as long as that intel is shared. For example, German security forces had no idea about the Hamburg cell plotting 9/11 in their country. They would very much wanted a tip off, even from an allied sp…

You are correct regarding SIGINT, that allies don't mind being spied upon. What they do mind is when they themselves are being spied upon. Like Merkel's phone being tapped. Or the US recruiting on ground assets in Saudi Arabia.

> What they do mind is when they themselves are being spied upon

That's what SIGINT is.

> Like Merkel's phone being tapped.

Which is an example of SIGINT. And it was leaked which is why it became an issue. World leader's are always surveilled.

There's a certain level of aggression you use against acknowledged enemies that would be awkward if exposed against allies, that is not to say it doesn't still happen.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#293

Post by bobthepanda » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

throwaway4good wrote: post #118

coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

Does it? France and the UK started the Libya conflict but had to call in the US via NATO for help.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#294

Post by bobthepanda » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #242

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark?

> Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark? Denmark, no clue. But Greenland? The Arctic Circle is of increasing geopolitical importance and competition between Russia and America.

Denmark is also at the entrance of the Baltic, which would be fairly important for the Russian navy.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#295

Post by seppin » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

bigbubba wrote: post #69

mrslave wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that the US doesn't actively spy on its partners, at least in their home countries, yet they allow it to be done to them. I don't follow this stuff closely so I can't really contribute. I'm sure others here would like to hear more. I do remember when Israel's cell tower interceptors were found in D.C. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/12/israel-white-house...

It probably has something to do with Israel being very popular with wide swaths of the American public (particularly evangelical Christians), to such an extent that it's not terribly uncommon to hear American politicians praise Israel to garner more support from themselves.

Israel gladly accepts all the help it can from the US, but is well aware of the large support that American anti-zionist and pro-palestinian causes receive. They also don't trust certain administrations to always have their back, even if stated publicly.

In summary, Israel always has a bunker mentality of "us vs. the world". The US, while an ally, isn't immune from suspicion and active and aggressive spying efforts.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#296

Post by rini17 » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 10:43 PM UTC

vasac wrote: post #278

rini17 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of sources paid by Kremlin there is no serious confirmation that NATO was somehow involved in toppling Ukraine's govt. There is plainly no united fruit scenario, only a general distaste of russian government, same as elsewhere in eastern europe. Of course, the US government supports affiliated NGOs as it does elsewhere in the world (and as everyone does), but "power play" means something else.

Yeah, NGOs supported* by US government - doublespeak at its best :) *supported as in created, instructed and financed.

How doublespeak? That's exactly what support means. There are russian- and chinese- supported organizations and "institutes" everywhere, too. And always were. As long as they aren't doing crime, armed insurrections and shooting down civilian aircrafts by mistake, it's fine by me. If NATO is doing any of that, please provide evidence.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#297

Post by NumberCruncher » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

Some sources say they were spying together: https://www.techzine.eu/news/security/52178/danish-intellige...

Danish politician about having cheap flying taxis by 2030, we only have to give up our privacy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25068820

All lies and deception...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#298

Post by jopsen » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

_RPL5_ wrote: post #117

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

Your argument is that EU countries will not stand up to the US, because they are afraid of losing American protection. However, in case of Germany you linked evidence that goes directly against your argument: >German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday called for creating a European Union army, stressing that Europeans can no longer merely rely on the U.S. for their security. Given the context of the thread, this quo…

> The last country to invade and occupy Denmark was Germany, not Russia.

Technically, Russia did occupy the Danish Island of Bornholm following the German occupation.

The gave it up in 1946, but still it spent almost a year under soviet occupation.

On topic, I think we just like Americans and buying planes from the US was more or less a forgone conclusion :)

Besides nobody has ever been fired for buying the most advanced plane from the US -- hopefully we only need them because they are cool, hehe, so what does it matter if they can fly?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#299

Post by jopsen » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

lenkite wrote: post #142

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

Please let the EU develop its own standing military force independent of NATO and US. It's truly about time this happened. We need a third counterpart to China and the USA.

As much as Trump makes me want that...

We just don't have public figures in the EU who can do what an American president can do.

Trump might not be able to command the loyalty of NATO if it came down to it. But we would listen to Bush, Clinton or Obama, I don't see a figure in the EU who can address the world in this way.

When Bush said we were going into Afghanistan (right or wrong) we did it.

Who in the EU can speak on behalf of the free world?

I'm european, and I've heard we have an EU president -- but I have no clue who that is, or what it means.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#300

Post by loopback_device » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

SilentBan wrote: post #249

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would Russia invade Denmark?

In order to gain a direct way to the Atlantic ocean. They can currently reach it trough the Arctic Ocean and Black Sea -> Mediterranean Sea. But direct way will be nice. Another reason would be to insert themselves between Scandinavia and Germany.

Kaliningrad Oblast is right between Scandinavia and Germany already, and Russia also has plenty of mainland coastline in the Baltic Sea.