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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#291

Post by vkou »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #277
vkou wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people understand this. What I'd like to see is the junkie to just get drugs from the government. It's cheaper for society to pay for a $20 fix (That costs $2 to produce), then for $500 dollars in property damage, a stolen $200 item that gets fenced for $20, a cop to show up to do a police report, and then, months down the road, an arrest, prison time, etc, etc.

Same thing with prisoners and rehabilitation. Letting prisoners attend colleges for free is a remarkably good government investment. The same thing is true about the homeless. Homeless services are expensive. It's cheaper to get them apartments, even if you still offer them all of the support services you were offering before. But whenever you propose these things, social conservatives seem to come out of the woodwor…

> The same thing is true about the homeless. Homeless services are expensive. It's cheaper to get them apartments, even if you still offer them all of the support services you were offering before.

We already do that, though, through things like food stamps and section 8 housing. It's expensive, but it works, because it keeps a lot of poor people fed and sheltered.

The visible homeless that you see are people who tend to have additional problems, on top of being poor (Untreated addiction and mental health problems are two big causes of this.)

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#292

Post by iguy »

joncrane wrote: post #156
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In total, about a half million people are in jail or prison for having, using, or selling drugs. Drug crimes account for about half of Federal prisoners. But percentage-wise, when you add up federal, state, and local prisons and jails, drugs are not as large a percentage as you'd think. Another half million people in prisons or jails haven't been convicted of any crime at all, either because they can't afford bail or…

What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs. I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast…

When you say a co-factor, can you say more about what you have in mind?

For instance it could be a junky who needs to feed his own habit. It could be that the profits available from dealing in some area motivate gangs to take control of it. And it could also be just that people taking drugs have impaired judgement, and do things they would avoid while sober. Would you care to guess how much of each goes on?

For alcohol, I guess it's mainly the 3rd (DUI, and manslaughter, etc.) and a tiny bit of the 1st (shoplifting to buy a drink).

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#293

Post by throwaway894345 »

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #273
throwaway894345 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the objective of this comment? It starts off talking about "Chicago = War Zone" and then it devolves into the ground state of HN's favorite whipping children of "cancel culture", "free speech" and how "The well-being of these communities shouldn't be exchanged for free-speech(?)". Chicago isn't a warzone. Last year I bought my first home here. I wouldn't live here if it were a warzone. But it does have probl…

Okay, so tell us what these "unpleasant complexities" that we're avoiding are.

As previously discussed, we can't improve neighborhoods plagued by violent crime simply by releasing offenders early or pulling police out of those neighborhoods. Anyway, this conversation seems to be veering toward an unproductive direction. I'll see myself out.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#294

Post by tinyhouse »

In the US every job I had required a criminal background check. Also when I volunteered to coach my kids team and also for other volunteering I did in their school.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. For example, you don't want let a sex offender coach a kids team. And I don't care if that person already paid their dues. But you cannot ruin the life of someone who has a minor offense from years ago. People should be able to rehabilitate and improve their life. I don't know what employers do when a background check is not clean. If they actually consider the severity of it or immediately reject the candidate.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#295

Post by learc83 »

sethammons wrote: post #141
UncleOxidant wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? I'd guess pretty much everyone you sit next to currently is capable of committing a serious, violent crime under the right (wrong) circumstances.

I agree. Given some circumstance or set of them, the overwhelming vast majority of people are capable of extreme violence. What is scary is those who enjoy violence and causing harm. My grandma worked in the next cube over from a guy for years. "Nicest guy ever." He spent his weekends cutting people into parts and mailing the the parts around.

> Given some circumstance or set of them, the overwhelming vast majority of people are capable of extreme violence.

If you consider circumstances where society would generally consider violence justified then maybe.

Historically even in combat only a small percentage of people would intentionally shoot to kill.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#296

Post by ticviking »

joncrane wrote: post #156
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In total, about a half million people are in jail or prison for having, using, or selling drugs. Drug crimes account for about half of Federal prisoners. But percentage-wise, when you add up federal, state, and local prisons and jails, drugs are not as large a percentage as you'd think. Another half million people in prisons or jails haven't been convicted of any crime at all, either because they can't afford bail or…

What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs. I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast…

There's also a lot of people pleading to the drug offence to get off of the property crime.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#297

Post by rootusrootus »

Master_Odin wrote: post #227
mc32 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. We should definitely have more of this and trades training for people in lock up, so they can do something productive once they get out. Instead of hitting the weights every day, they can engage in productive learning. We all benefit.

Except for the privatized prisons who don't actually want to rehabilitate their inmates so that they're more likely to recidivate and end up back in prison. The prison system has to be completely overhauled and freed from capitalism at the expense of human life.

Private prisons make up 8.4% of the total prison population. [0]

Interestingly, that's less than half what it is in Australia and UK.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#:~:text=Statist....

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#298

Post by Klinky »

sebmellen wrote: post #151
Klinky wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, seems you're just trying to come up with ways to apologize and gain sympathy for racists. No, it's not universal or common that people feel more empathy for murderers or criminals. People might feel empathy with more context, when remorse is expressed and time has passed, this applies to both murderers and racists. The examples in the TED talk are poor. If you're in public relations, don't make an offensive joke…

I never said it was universal to feel more sympathy for criminals, nor am I trying to apologize and/or gain sympathy for racists. How did what I wrote imply that? The TED talk, now 5 years old, encapsulated what has now grown into "cancel culture" in a poignant anecdote. There's nothing generative or useful about this concept of prosecution (or persecution?) for making a misstep online. I am fully in favor of impleme…

You said it was common. I said "it was not universal or common".

Social media is often used to amplify a message, do not act shocked when it amplifies the response as well.

I am not sure what the Portugal drug model has to do with this topic or why you're pivoting away from murderers and to drug users. You specifically noted murderers(effectively the most heinous of crimes), as gaining more sympathy than racist tweeters. This "sympathy" being provided to these murderers is them rotting in a prison for the rest of their lives or being executed. Social media and "cancel culture" is not on the same level as being stuffed in a prison for the rest of your life or getting a lethal injection. That was my point, not that racist speech on twitter is an automatic crime(though keep in mind that free speech laws do not actually cover all forms of speech).

How do you rehabilitate a racist tweeter in a thoughtful and caring manner that doesn't alienate their sensibilities? For all the talk of toxic "cancel culture", ingrained racism is also extremely toxic, and should not simply be ignored.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#299

Post by filoleg »

dahfizz wrote: post #247
tnorthcutt wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? Do you feel that after serving a sentence for such a crime, the perpetrator should not have a chance at a "normal" life? Should they live the rest of their days continually punished by society for what they did? If so, should we instead increase the length of the sentence for such a crime? To how long?

There is a big difference between "This person should be imprisoned and completely seperated from society" and "I should have the right to not work with violent people". I have no problem with a convicted murderer being released from prison, but I'm not going to invite them over for dinner.

> "I should have the right to not work with violent people"

You do have that right, because you can switch jobs at will (unlike that person), in case you don't want to work with someone purely due to their past and not something they are doing at your workplace.

I don't think we should be blocking people (who have already paid their dues for the crimes they have committed in the past) from getting a job solely for their past, just because you might be uncomfortable with that.

It isn't like you are trapped, you always have an option to leave. The person who paid their dues to the prison system doesn't have any options if they become unhireable solely due to people's prejudices about their past. And at that point, what other option do they have other than turn their head towards crime again? Rent and bills aren't gonna pay themselves.

Not the best solution, but I don't think that denying someone a job based on your discomfort about their distant past is reasonable at all. Of course, as long as they weren't in-and-out of jail multiple times for the same crimes, because that's an indication that they are likely to re-commit.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#300

Post by caymanjim »

tinyhouse wrote: post #294

In the US every job I had required a criminal background check. Also when I volunteered to coach my kids team and also for other volunteering I did in their school. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. For example, you don't want let a sex offender coach a kids team. And I don't care if that person already paid their dues. But you cannot ruin the life of someone who has a minor offense from years ago. People sh…

It's impossible to know for sure what employers actually check for when you're hired, but anecdotally I've only been given a background check consent form at three of about a dozen jobs over the past three decades, and two of those also required DoD security clearances. I suspect larger employers do it as a matter of course, and smaller ones don't.
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