My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#121

Post by Meph504 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #42

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

People change, especially after being punished for the mistake they made for 13 years. Chances are she would be less likely to engage in violence than the people you currently sit next to, because she has a personal understanding of the harsh punishment it would involve. Edit: The downvotes that this comment is currently receiving actually illustrate the problems outlined in this thread. If you disagree with the idea…

Recidivism statistics would disagree with this statement, nearly have of all violent offenders when released will commit another violent crime. https://www.michigan.gov/documents/corrections/Pew_Report_St...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#122

Post by staticassertion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

staticassertion wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

As with all things there is a judgment to be made, and as the one doing the hiring it is yours to make responsibly.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#123

Post by minitoar » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

staticassertion wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#124

Post by intortus » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #109

Using the logic of some people in this thread, the day after a convinced child molester gets out of prison, he should be able to start working at a day care. Why not? He served his time- you don't want to punish him indefinitely, right? Also a convicted fraudster can start working again immediately in a bank, or as a financial advisor for your parents- after all, he served his time, right? And a convicted Mafioso or…

Much of crime is driven by poverty. If the consequence of poverty-driven crime is more poverty, then this negative feedback loop turns society into an incarceral state.

This is the US in a nutshell.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#125

Post by Klinky » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #62

nendroid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

Ugh, seems you're just trying to come up with ways to apologize and gain sympathy for racists. No, it's not universal or common that people feel more empathy for murderers or criminals. People might feel empathy with more context, when remorse is expressed and time has passed, this applies to both murderers and racists.

The examples in the TED talk are poor. If you're in public relations, don't make an offensive joke about not being able to get get AIDS in Africa because you're white. If you're in journalism, don't plagiarize and make shit up. These people failed at the fundamentals of their job description.

Should the world just ignore racist tweets and the damage that racists/racism causes? Should racists get the same cushy "rehab" murderers do, by putting them in prison?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#126

Post by sethammons » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Personal story, fwiw. Wheelchair Tom was a neighbor growing up. Nice guy. Little quirky, but nice. Tom gave out quarters for Halloween, and paid small amounts to neighborhood kids to help out around his property.

Why was Tom in a wheelchair? Tom killed his wife years earlier in a crime of passion after catching her with another man in their bed. He grabbed a gun, shot both people. She died. Tom walked out and the lover came behind him and shot him in the back.

Tom went to prison for a very violent crime. I raked leafs for him as a kid, and so did my kids. I wouldn't have had second thoughts of asking him to keep an eye on the kids for a while if needed. Tom was a member of our community who had a very violent past that all the adults knew about and were accepting of.

Alternatively, there are folks who have sterling records that I would not let my kids do chores for.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#127

Post by anon55555 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

weka wrote: post #99

anon55555 wrote: post #69

Hey, posting anonymously here since this hits close to home; as I'm also a felon. I learned to program _after_ all my legal troubles started, and my sentence wasn't _nearly_ as long as this (6 months, drug crime). I 100% honestly feel like tech saved my life. My first job immediately gave me hope that I'm not defined by my past. Went from working in a factory making $7/hr (about 10 yrs ago), to now grossing well over…

That is great to hear. I am happy for you. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of tech consulting do you do?

Mostly web dev currently but I've worked in a few different domains.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#128

Post by manuelabeledo » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Anyone could be a potential murderer. I had a coworker who committed murder-suicide, and I nobody saw it coming.

In the same vein, anyone could be rehabilitated.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#129

Post by cycloptic » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #36

clevergadget wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pretty sure the people with criminal records have already been punished?

I believe what the person above was referring to is the dichotomy of the people cheering for prisoners getting jobs while cancelling people for a fairly innocuous tweet, however tasteless. While the prisoners may have paid for their crime, there isn't always as clear a path out of the purgatory that is becoming the social pariah of upsetting "the mob" in the Twitterverse (though, past a few professions, I'm unsure ho…

I wouldn't say that's a dichotomy. Internet popularity was fleeting before twitter and it probably still will be long afterwards. In general, the path out of unpopularity is to do research before you post something. If you don't want to do it yourself, you can hire a PR firm.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#130

Post by dj_mc_merlin » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust.

Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my criminal record, nor could they legally. An employer can only ask questions that are reasonably necessary for them to make a fair consideration about me as an applicant. You could ask an accountant about embezzlement convictions, a pharmacist about drug convictions etc., but that is not applicable to software engineers.

This is the only sane way to do things.