This is the more noteworthy as it is currently not exactly easy to find a job as software engineer, even if you have one or two decades of experience in the field and no criminal record.
My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
101–110 of 670 posts
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.
I'm not sure your statements about prison time are accurate, at least in the US. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 46.2% of inmates are in for drug offenses[1] and there is definitely disagreement about whether that should be a crime, let alone an extreme crime. Additionally, 78.6% of inmates are serving sentences longer than 5 years[2], which by necessity means that a large portion of those are for drug of…
But only about 10% of prisoners are in Federal custody.
Among those in state prisons, drug possession is about 3% of cases (about equal to DUI plus fraud cases). Other drug charges make up about 10%.
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?
You don't understand. One is an accidental mishap due to the extreme cruelty and unfairness of our modern society. The other one is a sincerely held unacceptable belief which endangers the progress of humanity. /s
Cf. "revolutionary conscience": [0]
[0] https://www.history-of-emotions.mpg.de/texts/revolutionary-c...
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#104This is an interesting story, but if I had the choice to hire a felon (yes, once you commit a felony, even after serving time you are still a felon) or a scrappy coding bootcamp grad I'd take the bootcamp grad every time.
Especially if I'm a founder with significant skin in the game, why would I risk my money, time and hard work on someone with a recorded record of making poor choices when there are hoards of others who haven't broken the law?
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.
I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…
> On the other hand, people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous.
This is pretty demonstrably untrue. Cenk Uygur comes to mind, off the top of my head - he's lost out on opportunities from things he said in the past that were perceived as racist, but nobody in good faith / nobody who matters considers him to continue to espouse those views. It helps that he quite vocally criticizes those views.
What is probably actually true is that, statistically, many people who were racist in the past are still racist, and many people who murdered in the past and went to prison commit no further violent crimes (for many reasons).
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.
So, Thought Crime weighs heavier than statutory crimes? Who decides the guilt or innocence of the thoughts?
you're trying to be clever, but statutory crimes are often either ridiculous (drug offenses) or can be put behind you and forgiven (if they were a product of circumstances or culture at the time.)
whereas what you're calling "thought crime" is more analogous to saying "i intend to commit statutory crimes in the future".
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#107There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…
I spent most of my career working in restaurants. We had a server who literally lit someone on fire. I had drug addicts who didn't show up for work, causing a panicked chain reaction among all the other people from their halfway house. Half the cooks were violating some sort of immigration or labor law.
It's fine. Most criminals are fine most the time.
What's your alternative? If you go to jail it's just for life because creampuffs can't handle sitting near someone who did something bad? Why is society comfortable with white colar criminals working when they cause more damage (both to the companies and to society as a whole)?
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?
I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.
There's a problem though:
- The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt"
- The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like"
If we think that racist tweets should bear harsh consequences, we need a bit better criteria of what "racist" actually means.
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#109Using the logic of some people in this thread, the day after a convinced child molester gets out of prison, he should be able to start working at a day care. Why not? He served his time- you don't want to punish him indefinitely, right?
Also a convicted fraudster can start working again immediately in a bank, or as a financial advisor for your parents- after all, he served his time, right? And a convicted Mafioso or gang member can become a cop. Etc. etc.
I agree society should help reintegrate prisoners, and find them work. That work might just be as in construction or retail sadly. Unfortunately, if you did something absolutely horrific, the consequences of that may last your entire life. As an employer I am not 'society'- I'm not obligated to hire a violent felon because society in general owes him or her something. As an employer I'm free to make my own decisions, and I personally wouldn't hire someone who did 13 years in prison, likely for homicide. If you disagree, that's fine- it's a free country, you can hire them or even let them into your home, up to you.
If you really disagree, tell me how about how daycares should hire pedophiles after they get out of prison. They did their time, right?
Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison
#110I was convicted for drugs and firearms in Norway. The only time it has ever come up during my many years as a programmer, was when a consulting company I worked for had the police IT service as a candidate for my next project. Since it was for the police, a background check would be required. I politely told my department head that I would not pass that, and a short summary of my case. At that time I had worked for a…
In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.
Readers from other countries, what is it like there?
I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.)
In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, but due to freedom of speech laws/1st amendment, typically background check companies are free to hold on to older records if they were at one time public.
I know in the EU, many countries have right to be forgotten laws, but the EFF has historically stood against them due to the fact they've often been used by wealthy individuals to hide their crimes.