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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

nytimes.com

291–300 of 672 posts

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#291
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Islam soils the reputation of islam. It has a massive problem of large percentages of Muslims supporting (or being okay with) violence and terrorism. 42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall). http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

I'm sure that if you did a survey of disenfranchised white youth in the US, you'd find a lot of people volunteering to enlist, and you could probably get some sympathy for the need to "go kill ISIS" or some other media-oriented headline. France has many issues, I doubt any of them are truly deeply connected to Islam. But it is of course easier to point at religion as the source of civil unrest, rather than at a faili…

ISIS is a jihadist terrorist organization, and that's recognized by most governments, many Islamic ones even. It's dishonest to compare openly fighting ISIS with blowing up and shooting civilians as a primary mean.

What happened today was not "civil unrest".

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#292
post #108

The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.

It's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections. We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it. There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often trouble…

Not that it makes up for it, but France also committed state-sponsored terrorism (by any definition of the word) in New Zealand in the 80's. Though they only killed one person with their bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#294
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My guess is that they were French nationals/residents. Based on what? I'm pretty uninformed here, and it seems like a lot of people are bringing up refugees. Curious why you think the opposite.

What he means is french muslims , which are nationals/residents. Charlie Hebdo attackers were french nationals, though having a north african/african background.

Almost certainly. But it does make a difference. Most French muslims come from Algeria and Marrocco and can't really claim to have been affected by the war in Syria. There are deeper roots to home grown terrorism than the Syrian conflict.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#295

Every Twitter user has jumped aboard and is using the hashtag #PorteOuverte which is intended to help Parisians find a safe place to stay during these attacks. It's even trending in Australia. This shows that Twitter is a successful news aggregation and trend following service, but also proves its failure to be a platform for meaningful communication.

How has it failed as a platform for meaningful communication? Aren't you reporting its success in this area?

People expressing something (sympathy, judgement, whatever) are crowding out the messages of people trying to co-ordinate requests for support and offers of support.

It's cool that the twitter user in Australia has a message of sympathy. But if you urgently need a safe place to stay in Paris, and you can't find the people making that offer, in a place meant for that offer, because the non-parisians are making too much noise, then that's a problem.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#296
post #76

I live in Paris and was spending the night in the middle of the hot zone. I was a few hundred meters from the Bataclan but fortunately the area I was in was spared. I tried to get a Uber but they were unavailable, "State of emergency, please stay home", the app said. I took a city bike home, rode about 10kms and barely saw anyone in the streets all the way home. It was really, really weird. I'm awfully sad that peopl…

I wanted to get back to your comment given that this thread has erupted into a political discussion. I just wish you the best, and I hope that I am correct in saying that a lot of us have our thoughts with you and the rest of you in Paris.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#297
post #224
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he might be talking about Stalinism. Or at the very least, just Stalin.

So you think Stalin was as bad as ISIS and Nazis? edit: Why downvotes? I've asked a question, I wonder how western people see Stalin in history. I as Russian see him as the one who was involved in defeating Nazis

I definitely put all three in the same category. Stalin was probably less bad than Hitler (he killed more people than Hitler did historically, but imagine the body count if Hitler had won); but it's not easy to choose among totalitarian regimes -- or aspiring totalitarian regimes, in ISIS' case.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#298
Latest breakdown of fatalities available, from CNN and other sources:

  114 and still rising at the Bataclan theater
  19 at Le Belle Equipe bar
  14 at the Cambodian restaurant
  4 in the area of the Avenue de la Republique
  4 outside the Stade de France (remarkably low death toll here given that there were two suicide bombers there)

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#299
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It can be rational in the context of anti-colonialism and sovereignist ideology and historical revanchism, as well as many other not at all irrational ideologies. It might or might not be effective, depending on the specific political goals in question. It is not, in general, about religion per se, except in so much as religion is part of group identity (in a similar vein as say, nationalism). But that is not the…

You really think that the sincere belief that you will spend an eternity in heaven and secure a place in heaven for 70 family members of your choosing and earn the love of God has nothing to do with it? It's hard for people who are not religious fundamentalists to understand that some people really believe this with as much certainty as you and I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow. This belief is precisely why s…

> Why blow yourself up when you can make a bomb and then another and another?

To avoid having to endure the consequences of your own actions. For people with nothing to lose, suicide attacks are actually the most risk-averse choice: regardless of the possible existence of an afterworld, you're certain to escape punishment in this world. Look at Columbine-style attacks - no religion there, just semi-rational choices.

People don't blow themselves up because a book or a preacher tells them so; they do it because they are fed up with living shitty lives (either in material or spiritual terms). That is what education should bring them: the consciousness that there is always something worth living for. At that point, whether god exists or not, it doesn't matter.

Re: Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

#300
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be rational, rather. The classic terrorists of the '70s wanted "a lot of people talking but not a lot of people dead" -- and also wanted to survive the experience. The new breed of terrorism in the '80s and '90s was different from those; the IRA, the PLO, and various state-sponsored terrorists in that period had/have more in common with each other, despite their obvious differences, than any have with al-Q…

> neither Naziism nor Communism believed that success was a sign that Divine Providence was smiling on them. You didn't study your history, comrade! Communist orthodoxy believed in a historical inevitability that overlapped very closely with a sort of man-made Divine Providence. The Nazis had their own set of religious and spiritual motivations, their racial destiny and so on. They differed from Abrahamic religions i…

> You didn't study your history, comrade! Communist orthodoxy believed in a historical inevitability that overlapped very closely with a sort of man-made Divine Providence. The Nazis had their own set of religious and spiritual motivations, their racial destiny and so on.

> They differed from Abrahamic religions in the sense that they expected "victory" in this world and in their time, as opposed to vague posthumous compensations and end-of-times prophecies; but they did believe in a "greater power" manifesting itself in their successful deeds.

Good point; I forgot about the historical-determinist side of Communism. I'm more familiar with the Nazis, who believed in an empty, Providence-less cosmos that was more or less Lovecraftian (and who accordingly made themselves a pretty convincing Cthulhu) -- see _Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning_ for the details.

> That's a false dichotomy. The problems in Syria won't go away with bombs, and it was manifestly stupid for Hollande to join the party willy-nilly, especially after having experienced first-hand the inefficiency of his security apparatus. What is needed is a real agreement between the real power brokers (Turkey, Saudi, Russia, Iran) to cut off the crazies for good. We need hard diplomacy, not hard policies.

Surely both at once wouldn't hurt. We need concerted ground action to defeat ISIS -- and in particular, we need Turkey to decide once and for all which side they're on -- but I don't think it's a bad idea to present a united front; I _do_ think that it's a bad idea to imagine that making concessions will inspire fewer lone wolves and opportunists, rather than more.

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