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Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

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Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#281

Post by Elrac »

DarkKomunalec wrote: post #254
Elrac wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is keeping health care affordable in Germany and probably a bunch of other European countries. Until the Brexit, cheap foreign labor helped keep prices low in the UK. The USA don't have a problem with immigrants - they have a problem with the runaway corruption of their political leaders. Corporate lobbyists get to write laws for representatives to rubber stamp. The reason the same drugs cost 5x more in t…

I'd love some statistics on this - what is the proportion of immigrants who are doctors, and how does that compare to the native population (for Germany, the U.K., etc..)? How does it depend on the immigrant's country of origin? And, if the goal is to reduce medical costs - why not accept only doctors?

I'm sorry, but I'm too lazy to dig up those statistics for you. Part of the reason is that I consider your question to be fundamentally misdirected.

First, I'd like to point out that medical staff form just the tip of the iceberg in terms of wage-reduction by immigrants. For example, my father in law lives in an old age home staffed almost entirely with low-wage foreigners - a mix of immigrants, migrants, what-have you. There are job markets in health and old age care, cleaning, agriculture and construction that completely dwarf just that for doctors.

Secondly, because much of the current discussion of immigrants relates specifically to refugees: to selectively accept desirable highly-qualified refugees from countries people are fleeing for their lives would be deplorably, cynically selfish and inhumane.

Third, if I remember correctly, "nationals-only" reproduction in Germany and some other European countries, but also e.g. Japan is below the level required to sustain a population (there's a technical term for that, but I've forgotten it), so many modern countries actually _need_ immigrants to fill job vacancies in countries with industries that insist on continuing to grow regardless of populations.

The Japanese are (at the moment) resolved to let their country dwindle out before diluting their treasured racial stock. That's their decision, and they can go that way if they want to. Other countries, meanwhile, don't base their immigration policies on -let's be honest- racism, or less so.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#282

Post by a-saleh »

seppin wrote: post #247
nitrogen wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA hasn't tried to annex parts of those countries. Do military bases count?

No, they exist under legal authority of host nation.

That can be more complicated, based on what I heard about i.e. Guantanamo Bay, where technically the Cuban goverment would really like the USA army to leave, and USA pretends they have a lease and that everything is fine.

I am not sure if there are other examples, though.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#283

Post by [deleted] »

VLM wrote: post #204
wavefunction wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are defending the Russians to a slight extent by bringing up the misdeeds of the US. Two wrongs do not make a right. American here.

With all due respect you're confusing diplomacy with morality. The question isn't if Socrates would find the behavior pleasingly moral, but if pragmatically at least one country has been invading random 3rd world countries on the other side of the planet for decades without the world collapsing into WW3 then what is the likely outcome of a much more minor ... international misbehavior. Therefore a country "invading"…

[deleted]

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#284

Post by literallycancer »

VLM wrote: post #204
wavefunction wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are defending the Russians to a slight extent by bringing up the misdeeds of the US. Two wrongs do not make a right. American here.

With all due respect you're confusing diplomacy with morality. The question isn't if Socrates would find the behavior pleasingly moral, but if pragmatically at least one country has been invading random 3rd world countries on the other side of the planet for decades without the world collapsing into WW3 then what is the likely outcome of a much more minor ... international misbehavior. Therefore a country "invading"…

Good for you. However some of us live in the countries that are quite close to it, and it hasn't been that long when we had Russian soldiers stationed here.

So either "contained in its den" means eating up half of Europe (which just isn't good enough) or there's plenty to be wary about.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#285

Post by gadders »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #195
jonathanstrange wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that the EU is falling apart, but if it ever does, then certainly more because of perceived issues rather than real ones. Although it was created democratically and by countless unanimous votes of its member states, the EU has always been an easy scapegoat for national politicians who did not do their own job right. In the UK, they quite obviously got the revenge for this behavior. (Remember, most MPs were an…

"The EU was primarily funded as a way to prevent Europe from being destroyed by inner conflicts again, which makes some sense after two devastating world wars that left Europe in ruins and killed millions of citizens. It's sad that this is sometimes forgotten and only emphasized by older politicians." This is such an important point. Whatever problems the EU indeed might have, its role in keeping the peace in a conti…

>>Whatever problems the EU indeed might have, its role in keeping the peace in a continent that has seen war almost uninterruptedly over the course of its history cannot be emphasized enough.

I think you are confusing the EU with NATO.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#286

Post by throwaway729 »

autokad wrote: post #171
bad_user wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Brexit campaign was fueled by lies. The real issue is a trend of anti-intellectualism and xenophobia, which I fear we've seen before, triggered by the great depression and a precursor to WWII. It's as if, whenever a financial crisis happens, people go dumb.

your being dismissive. they have legitimate complaints that have been ignored for more than a decade. their situation (and really most people) continued to get worse as pro misses of prosperity from globalization landed on a few. maybe they are wrong, but basically they are being called dumb for being pushed into minimum wage jobs and told 'dont worry, we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free communit…

> they have legitimate complaints... we'll raise minimum wage to 15 an hour and give you free community college' and rejecting that offer

So should we throw our sabots at the microcontrollers and robotic arms? Or what?

>...free community college

I suppose those people have college degrees?

Oh, no?

So basically they want a well-paying middle class job but feel they're entitled to that wage without getting any education.

Feelings of resentment and entitlement aren't mutually exclusive with "going dumb". In fact, they usually co-exist.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#287

Post by rhino369 »

seppin wrote: post #251
krakensden wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. That wikipedia article toes the Georgian line, which is sort of disappointing, but they do cite the EU report (via the 'world socialist news', which I don't really want to cite) that the pretext was manufactured. The Russian point of view is that they were stopping an ethnic cleansing right on their border, before it could get too far. It's not a c…

> Yes, but it's not ethnically Georgian, which was sort of the problem. This is the Russian argument, if a sovereign country has a majority of ethnic Russians, it's ok to invade that country on their behalf. As a neutral, do you actually agree with this? It seems crazy.

There isn't a good solution to this problem. And it's a problem Americans often have a very hard time understanding due to cultural differences.[1] But the world does step in occasionally to stop one ethnicity from beating up another even within the same country. NATO did so in Yugoslavia.

But it's also used as an excuse for expansionism. The build up to WW2 was Germany doing this exact thing.

But post WWII European history also has a lot of ethnic regrouping. All Germans were put back inside Germany. Borders are drawn to group people. Mixed ethnic nations broke apart into single ethnic countries.

This question is at the heart of the blood bath in twenty century Europe.

[1]- Americans treat ethnicity very differently than most cultures since we have such diverse ethnicities with no little to no cultural heritage leftover. America entirely decouples ethnicity and nationality. So it seems strange that it's such an important force in other countries.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#288

Post by exelius »

Unfortunately, with all of the major problems in the world today, the US is too much to blame to be able to solve them. We were seen as a neutral force around much of the world in the post-colonial era (we were a colony who threw off our empire, as much of the world was doing in the 1950s through 1970s -- not coincidentally the apex of American power). But as we've operated the world, we made mistakes, and we're having to deal with those now.

Look at all the big problems: global warming (we're the major cause and we're so addicted to oil that it ain't gonna change), Islamist terror (so we inherited the modern conflict through Sykes-Picot, but we escalated it enough that it's our problem now), North Korea (we caused it but China has to live with it), and so on.

China is in a MUCH better position to address all of these. Their economy is just now industrializing heavily, and they're doing it with the focus of leading a new global clean energy revolution because they have determined that it is the only way China can obtain widespread prosperity. Sea level rise will hurt China as much as anyone, and their pollution levels are unacceptably high. Their peak industrial scale is 3-5x that of the United States, and their manufacturing capacity will never be challenged given the population difference.

They also don't have the baggage that we do in the middle east -- America and the Christian west are collectively referred to as "Crusaders", even by liberal Jews in Israel. In many minds, we're just the latest in an ugly, 1200 year long procession of white people who come in and wage wars of conquest to distract from the problems at home (the early crusades were a way for the European nobility to keep their 3rd and 4th sons occupied / killed lest they cause a succession crisis). Sure, they're mixed up with the Uighirs, but honestly they don't oppress the Uighirs any more than they oppress similar opposition groups. And the key here is that China only does it within their borders.

And Korea... yeah, China really doesn't want a small-scale nuclear war happening on its border. Any radioactive fallout would likely destroy China's economy for a decade or more -- considering the engines of China's economic might are mostly on the eastern coast of the country. So China is willing to tolerate almost any level of bad behavior by the Kim family. Best case scenario for North Korea is a power vacuum caused by the death of a Kim where the Chinese military comes in and runs peacekeeping and propaganda with an iron fist. Very few countries know how to urbanize farmland filled with illiterate farmers. China is one of them.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#289

Post by googletazer »

ptaipale wrote: post #168
tdkl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to stop imagining things and keep up with the reality. Because the reality is that Russia has basically no military stations around the planet in foreign countries and yet is constantly portrayed as aggressor.

Well, the bases aren't actual aggression, you know. They're generally built based on agreements with host countries. Most often the host countries enthusiastically welcome them. Invading Georgia is aggression. Invading Ukraine is aggression. Sending "little green men" over is. Sending anti-aircraft batteries to shoot down civilian planes over the "Novorossiya" puppet regime's controlled area is.

Yeah I saw that CNN interview where the girl from Ossetia was telling what actually happened and then got cut off for "technical difficulties" :). Georgia got off easy.

As for Ukraine - yeah Russia occupied Crimea, but it was either that or risk a crack that could disintegrate it entirely. Israel struck first in the 7 day war as well, and good that they did, because otherwise they wouldnt exist. History is full of such examples.

Re: Why Europe Is Warning of Pax Americana's End

#290

Post by literallycancer »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #138
rrggrr wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia has good reason to be worried about their defense. The western powers have been doing most of the invading lately. Show me a recent Western intervention that threatens Russia's legitimate security interests. Syria? Perhaps. Aside from that your assertion is unsupported.

Disclaimer: Russia is an authoritarian country and not a shining example of freedom. That being said.... If you were Russian and you'd spent the last century watching the West undercut you and try and control you at every step (for valid reasons in a lot of cases), you'd be threatened, too. They went from being a superpower to having 100 million more people than California with the same GDP, while watching their own…

>history has been exceedingly cruel to the Russian people

Their leadership just doesn't/didn't value human lives very much.

How about you put yourself in the shoes of people who's lives were ruined by Russian expansionism?

Oh, and why should we care about their pride at all?

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