Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#271

Post by geebee » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

gorbachev wrote: post #199

deskamess wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer a system where the candidate can leave the job immediately, or worst case, after 3-6 months of arriving in the US. The company that does the sponsoring should not have the power to hold on to the employee. If the candidate can stay employed in his/her field and average[1] the salary filled on the non immigrant application sheet for 4 out of the 5 year period, then, regardless of company, the green card…

Once you're on an H1-B visa, transferring it to another company is quite a bit easier, and NOT subject to the quotas. It's completely doable. The only downside is that processing the visa transfer takes time. Nowhere near the amount of time it takes to get a new visa, of course, but it's still longer than a two week notice.

You are also very limited in the kind of jobs you can take. I think that part of the appeal of the H1B is that it creates a pool of programmers who are only allowed to be programmers. Keep in mind, the biggest competition for programmers may come from outside the field. In my opinion, being a programmer is actually very difficult. Even the much derided "crud" apps require a substantial amount of reading of dense material, tremendous persistence in the face of strange and obscure bugs and errors, the ability to communicate with (and negotiate with) non-technical stakeholders under deadline pressure… really, people who can do this are able to take jobs that often pay better with more stability in other fields, provided that they are free to do so.

For instance, registered nurses and dental hygienists in the bay area earn a bit more and a bit less than application developers, respectively. Under the H1B terms, it would be difficult for a programmer to become a physician, lawyer, nurse, dental hygienist, mortgage broker, or many other jobs. As a result a salary and prospects gap can emerge between programming and these fields - increasing the probability that those people with freedom and choice will avoid programming (and ensuring that the "shortage" continues decade after decade).

Truth is, visa programs that are designed to target specific jobs or industries by allowing workers only to work for a specific employer or in a specific field are likely to end up badly distorting labor markets.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#272

Post by barrkel » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

I got a H-1B visa. I was living in Ireland at the time. But, as it turned out, I never moved to the US.

It was for a compiler position at Borland. I ended up working remotely for the next 6 years or so, first for a year as a contractor at a 6 figure Euro rate, then later as a salaried employee after I moved to London. They flew me over two to four times a year to keep up to date with the team. I collectively lived over 6 months in Scotts Valley, albeit in hotels. All this wasn't cheap.

You're generalizing from a stereotype you've seen. But don't think it represents all situations. The mentality you've got is the same one at work with racism and sexism. It's reductive and will mislead you.

There's a certain amount of tech talent at any given technical ability level available worldwide, and only a fraction of it is in the US. The opportunities to leverage tech talent are, however, larger in northern CA than most other places. And some things can only be implemented by people with the right level of ability. When you artificially limit the supply of qualified labour, all you can do is shuffle your existing resources - paying more won't increase the supply quickly enough. Limiting supply of able labour will reduce the speed of innovation and economic growth - including for locals.

Maybe these "body shops" are a problem. I don't know for sure - I don't have enough information. The way they are talked about, it doesn't sound like the quality of people brought in is terribly high, so it seems to me you don't have much to worry about re competition, unless you're not very capable. On the other hand, it sounds like it could be upskilling India as these people get rotated out, which to my mind is a good thing - beggar-thy-neighbour policies don't pay off in the long run, and besides are morally questionable when the disparity in wealth is very large.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#273

Post by bhangi » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

I suspect that the majority of the cases where H-1B workers are paid less than the prevailing wages are at body shops like Wipro, TCS and yes, IBM. IMHO one potential fix for the situation could be to disallow (or at least make it sufficiently expensive) for a company to hire an H-1B worker for any third party work -- that is, if company A hires a worker, then the worker would have to work on company A's premises only and that any such work cannot be sold to third parties on a time and material basis. Yes, enforcement will be difficult and there will be clever ways of circumventing the regulations, but I honestly see no other solution except to cut out H-1B altogether. Which, IMHO would be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Having been in a position of trying to hire engineers in this market, the AeroFS experience is spot on.

And yes, we should completely get rid of L-1. I agree that it is one channel that is exploited by the body shops.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#274

Post by vonsnowman » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #213

vonsnowman wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, I am the employee mentioned in that post and your statement is just hilarious. Obviously, a young French guy with disposable income, no dependents and earthly possessions that fit in a large backpack and a suitcase is not representative of the majority of H1B workers but the specter of deportation is not very scary to me. The last two times were just opportunities to travel.

It starts to become more relevant when you start to make more ties, and realize you might suddenly be yanked away from your new friends (and possibly SO). I'm certainly not saying it's the motivation in every case - doubtless it is often about costs and sometimes genuinely about talent.

Don't get me wrong, the terms of the H1B are pretty terrible but that should not detract from Yuri's point that quotas and other immigration restrictions have a serious impact on smaller companies' ability to hire the best employees.

Similarly a lot of people talking about salary are missing the point. Sure, there might be more candidates if the salary offered were higher but even if they had the right skills (and that's a big if) they might not be a good fit for the team.

I know mentioning "culture fit" may attract a lot of flak but consider this: if a candidate cares more about the salary than the product and the team then even if they're incredibly skilled they risk being detrimental to the company as a whole. I've seen what the world of finance looks like through some friends and it's not pretty.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#275

Post by vladtaltos » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

what you say may be true for web-development but afaik there is not too much PhD requirements for web-dev work.

I'm in the computer vision and pattern recognition field and as you can guess from its popularity there's definitely a shortage - not just in the US but all over the world.

I'm in France and in my company we are trying aggressively to hire new people in the field but everybody good is already working somewhere or they're working on their own ideas. About 80% of our research/engineering team is from abroad: 2 Swiss, 2 Italian, 3 Turkish, 3 American, 1 Israeli, 2 Russian, 2 Canadian, 2 Spaniard, 1 Iranian - and only 5 French. finding talent in this day and age is a world-wide problem. there's not enough experienced people around for cutting edge companies and there's no way you can hire someone good in the field cheap local or away. that's a very absurd notion...

As I said, I'm currently not located in US and I'm not a US citizen. So, if I decide to work again there I'll need an H1B but as I'm already making quite well where I'm now, I wouldn't consider uprooting my life and returning back to US for no less than $200-250k. if this is considered cheap work, then so be it. exploiting imperialist bastards...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#276

Post by jazzyk » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

ntakasaki wrote: post #216

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

>It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. So does buying hardware that's made overseas. Interesting that this argument is made now, but how many local programmers ever bought anything electronic which was a little more expensive but made in the US instead of overseas? Why do software jobs deserve protection but hardware jobs do not? The amount of hypocrisy here is nau…

Why do CEO jobs deserve protection and {...} do not? Why do physician jobs deserve protection and {...} do not?

Either we make the US job market open for all types of jobs, or have the same rules applied to all professions. Right now, there are many jobs that are heavily protected (how many CEOs/Wall Street types are H1B?), while others are not.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#277

Post by briandear » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #150

manticore_alpha wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't say it's trivially easy, but with determination it can be done.

Ha, funny guy. The US immigration system is shit. Explain to me how someone can become a permanent resident or a US citizen who is current a citizen & resident of Canada, India or the Philippines. H1-B visas are the most straightforward way for someone with an education to get a job and permanent residency in the US. O and L visas are not universally applicable. Family sponsorship isn't always possible. Not everyone…

Try immigrating to the EU as an American; not quite so easy there either. If you are a refugee from Africa you have an easier time getting permanent residence in France than a moderately skilled workers would. My Mexican (now American) wife went through the US immigration process (she had a green card already when I met her, so I didn't 'help') You CAN immigrate to the U.S., there is a process. Funny since we're talking about India a lot on this thread, have you ever been through their immigration process? For even tourists you can only visit the country once during a six month period. Mexico's immigration system is rather difficult as well. The U.S. isn't alone in the difficulty of their immigration process. Getting residency in China is very difficult. I don't see why America gets special status with the animosity people feel towards immigration. Places like Canada are exceptions -- immigration is generally a long bureaucrat process in any country.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#278

Post by zenogais » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #244

I've worked for tech companies and a law firm that was in the top 4 in global immigration. The worker shortage is a myth. It doesn't exist. When a company claims they can't find a US worker they are lying and going through 'recruitment efforts' for Green Card and I-140 applications. HR uses a list of skills from the H1B they wanted to hire and then tailor a job posting to that exact list of skills in order to disqual…

This is a great response. The economics of this aren't really that hard to puzzle out. Why did Google, Apple, Intel, Adobe, and others collude to artificially lower worker wages?[1] The answer is simple, they were too damn high and they wanted to use cutting costs as a means to grow profits and deliver shareholder value. As a worker you simply have to realize this is DIRECTLY AGAINST your best interests, regardless of the rhetoric about some future where it's ultimately better for everyone. The H1B schemes debated here as well as the push to expand computer science education online and make it cheaper produce exist to produce a new pool of less skilled and therefore cheaper laborers as part of a pretty simple longterm economic strategy - programmers as the factory workers of the information economy. If you're a business owner this is good, if you're a high-paid software engineer this is bad.

[1]: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/03/30/apple-goo...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#279

Post by nostromo » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

deskamess wrote: post #164

alyandon wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to >appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely >going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position. I worked as a contract developer for over 10 years and this was absolutely the norm for the companies I worked at. It wa…

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

Allowing H1Bs to bounce around (unless each job they take can't be filled by the domestic workforce) would violate the intent of the law.

"The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States."

http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#280

Post by avemuri » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt.

This may be unpopular, but so what if it hurts local labor? The global flow of goods is good, but the flow of labor is bad? Twenty years ago Pepsi and Coke entered the Indian market and destroyed/replaced the local beverage industry. Uber and Amazon have launched their own price wars more recently. A lot of people want Indian companies to win, but I don't see words like 'unfair' being used in regard to the American companies with deeper pockets that hurt local businesses. I get that immigration hurts American wages, but that's just kinda how the world works. What does it matter if your job is outsourced to India or if an Indian comes to America to take it? The latter is probably better for the US if anything.