Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#191

Post by cousin_it » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:26 PM UTC

tmorton wrote: post #18

hackerboos wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots Sounds like a great way to skew immigration in favour of big business and completely screw over start ups and SMBs.

Pricing a scarce resource doesn't "screw over" anyone.

> Pricing a scarce resource doesn't "screw over" anyone.

Citation needed!

For reference, here's a toy model where pricing a scarce resource screws someone over:

- There are two people in the model, Alice and Bob.

- Alice is very rich, Bob is very poor.

- Each of them needs a loaf of bread per day to survive (100 utility), and would also enjoy eating a second loaf (1 utility).

- Initially, each of them gets a loaf from the government for free. There are only two loaves available per day.

- Now let's price the scarce resource, and have the government sell the loaves instead! Alice buys both loaves and enjoys life. Bob doesn't get anything and dies.

Right?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#192

Post by halflings » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:26 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area"

Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one.

You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries.

As someone who doesn't live in the US but would like to work in this industry, I will probably have to relocate to the US (either in the Bay Area or New York). Do you mean that offers I've got in the past were because I'm "cheap labor"? (as in "Let's fly you from the other side of the world, pay for the crazy high VISA fees, pay for relocation, ... and then pay you the same as those that already live in the Bay Area")

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. I'm not even going to guess who the "We" in your message refers to.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#193

Post by LordHumungous » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:27 PM UTC

jarjoura wrote: post #122

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#194

Post by dannyr » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:28 PM UTC

Having worked for startups in SF/SV and non-startups in DC and San Diego, exploiting H1Bs are more common in the latter.

I know of some companies reporting a fair wage to IRS/Labor Department but actually paying the employees a lot less.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#195

Post by bquinlan » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:28 PM UTC

A lot of the comments assume that there are only two choices: hire a local American worker or hire an immigrant. But, as the article shows, there is a third choice: hire outside of the US.

Giving this third choice, I don't think that restricting H1B visas in some fashion (either through cost or availability) will necessarily have the effect of increasing domestic wages. It may have the opposite effect and drive companies to open up shop outside of the US - Microsoft opened up a development shop in Canada for just this reason [1] and my understanding is that Microsoft would strongly prefer that all of its employees be in one location.

The biggest risk would be that American companies start choosing non-US locations as their engineering center-of-gravities because they want to avoid the coordination costs of distributed development without losing the ability to hire non-American workers [2].

[1] http://thetyee.ca/News/2007/11/07/MSWord/

[2] This already happens at a small scale already. I know of a SF-based startup that moved their engineering organization to Europe because they couldn't get visas for key team members.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#196

Post by xxxyy » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

nichochar wrote: post #57

As an H1B person, who has incredibly talented (french, actually) friends who did not get the lottery, I can back up the veracity of this article 100%. And it is very upsetting to me that this lottery even takes place. How does it even make sense? This system was designed for the world of 20 years ago, when people barely ever travelled outside of their country.

Last year I had pending offers from a couple big SV companies, all of them at around $200k/year. Same goes for many of my friends (I have just graduated). Did not get any job due to H1B shortage. I will stay in Europe for now, as I am not interested in being humiliated by such an absurd system. America, fix your immigration.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#197

Post by klochner » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

bioskope wrote: post #173

brandonl222 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think your situation represents the majority of H1B employers?

Absolutely, it does http://www.h1bwage.com/

That's not helpful without comparable salaries for naturalized citizens at the same companies.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#198

Post by squozzer » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

Certainly Yuri simplified his argument - he may have hired for talent first, then maybe "fit", but he also had to consider costs. After all, he probably couldn't justify paying a hire 1 billion USD per year. So cost is a constraint, even if in Yuri's mind it's somewhat trivial.

And while Yuri's story is well-told and has a happy - if not completely triumphant - ending, it's not that instructive regarding immigration policy. Doubling H1s probably wouldn't have helped, maybe something like 5x would have. How would THAT affect salaries? You don't need a Nobel in economics to figure it out.

But let's talk about Yuri's solution - is it really that bad a deal for Yuri, AeroFS, or the US? Not really.

Yuri might wish for his hire to be closer - we are social animals, always looking for butts to sniff - but we live in the 2010s, not the 1950s.

AeroFS has a new office, congrats! It's now an international company!

And the US - we can cry about losing another taxpayer, but the additional contribution of one or even thousands of decent-earning workers doesn't really add much to the economy, especially when they require the services of a government that has been in serious fiscal trouble for as long as I can remember.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#199

Post by gorbachev » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

deskamess wrote: post #143

bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

I would prefer a system where the candidate can leave the job immediately, or worst case, after 3-6 months of arriving in the US. The company that does the sponsoring should not have the power to hold on to the employee. If the candidate can stay employed in his/her field and average[1] the salary filled on the non immigrant application sheet for 4 out of the 5 year period, then, regardless of company, the green card…

Once you're on an H1-B visa, transferring it to another company is quite a bit easier, and NOT subject to the quotas.

It's completely doable. The only downside is that processing the visa transfer takes time. Nowhere near the amount of time it takes to get a new visa, of course, but it's still longer than a two week notice.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#200

Post by jlebar » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt.

I think there's little question that increasing the supply of engineers reduces their price -- our salaries. We can argue about whether it's a small or a large effect, and whether it goes away in the long run due to macroeconomic effects, but it's certainly there. So you're arguing against a straw man here.

But more to the point, it's short-sighted and selfish to judge policy decisions solely based on their effects on your salary. Especially since those of us in tech are, by and large, ridiculously well-compensated.

Setting aside the benefits to the immigrants themselves, highly-skilled workers who emigrate to the US are a /fantastic deal/. We paid nothing to educate them, yet they come here and grow the economy and pay taxes. All of these new people have to buy housing, food, medical care, and so on. It's literally free economic growth.

> We also don't need any more of the divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos we're seeing > in the south bay, cupertino and east bay with communities insulating themselves > rather than assimilating.

This is borderline racist. "/We/ don't need any more of /them/, especially if they choose to live apart, rather than become Real Americans." If the alternative is living near people like you, it's no wonder they tend to stick together.