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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#211
In my experience H1B visas generally fall into one of two pools:

1. Getting skilled talent from overseas. You simply can't get enough of these people locally. These go to Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, etc;

2. Cheap labour for bodyshops.

The problem here isn't (1) but (2). IMHO the problem has two primary causes:

1. Prevailing wage determinations are a joke; and

2. Lack of mobility, particularly the essentially indentured servitude system that is employer sponsored permanent residency.

The last is particularly important. The queue for green cards is based on country of birth and some countries have deep queues, particularly China, India, the Phillipines and Mexico.

The way it works is you can have a 3 year H1B twice for a total of 6 years. If your employer starts the green card sponsorship at least a year before your (final) H1B expires you can stay indefinitely. You cannot then move employers or, to some degree, have significant changes in job responsibilities. You can't move (geographically) either.

Green card sponsorship works in essentially two phases.

The first is LC (labor certification). This is where the queue and per-country quotas exist. Depending on category, if you're from India you might be waiting 5-7+ years for this.

The second phase is essentially automatic and takes 6-12 months.

Now the LC phase has some huge variables. You can get randomly audited (DOL estimates 30% of LC applications will be audited and they randomly audit some so employers don't game the system, so they claim). Those audits can lead to further questions. This cycle can (and does) continue for years in some cases.

All this time the employee simply cannot move and has absolutely no bargaining power with their employer.

The solution here is to give employees mobility and make green cards essentially automatic after a given period of employment, combined with no limits on H1B renewal. If you still want a per-country quota (and that sounds like something the US would continue to want), then after, say, 3-5 years on work visa you automatically enter the queue for permanent residency and when your number comes up, you just get it.

Fact is, many foreigners are willing to work for essentially slave wages in the hopes of a better life for them and their children. The current system isn't slavery in the classic sense but I'd certainly call it indentured servitude.

As for the idea that "they're stealing our jobs" [tm], let me just add my personal perspective as someone who's interviewed:

There are many people out there masquerading as programmers/engineers who have utterly no business drawing a paycheck for such. I'd even go so far as to say the majority. People who can actually program are in high demand, regardless of country of origin and they're simply aren't enough of them. Employing them from overseas does not (IMHO) hurt local talent. Demand exceeds supply.

Even bodyshops are a symptom. Many companies, particularly Fortune 500 companies and governments at every level, are willing to accept high-priced inccompetence-to-mediocrity that is the norm for "consultants" and vendors.

This isn't a zero sum games.

The real long term danger is that the US, as a whole, seems to take their preeminence in technology as a given. At some point you'll reach a tipping point where it just makes sense to invest in technology elsewhere. We're not there yet. Far from it. But it could happen.

In 1800 the US had a population of ~2M. In 1900 it was ~50M. In those 100 years the US transformed from an agrarian backwater to an industrial superpower largely on the back of immigration.

I understand the desire to shut the doors. This is pervasive at every level from immigration to the ridiculous NIMBYism that is rampant in the Bay Area. It's ultimately short-sighted however.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#212
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't say it's trivially easy, but with determination it can be done.

I don't necessary disagree with you on this: if there is a will, there is a way. Regardless of how the immigration law is, even if you make it "No immigration at all", someone will find a way to get in. But that's far and far away from "standard and normalized", which implies something is accessible to standard and more average people. The top .5 or 1% (as in aptitude and willpower) will always find ways to get thing…

A university-educated electrical engineer doesn't want to be an illegal immigrant and the employers that need his skills won't hire illegal immigrants either.

So this is only really true for people willing to work illegally, like migrant farm workers. Presumably the US wants a wider mix of immigrants beyond that.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends. If they need someone they can abuse with the threat of deportation...

FYI, I am the employee mentioned in that post and your statement is just hilarious. Obviously, a young French guy with disposable income, no dependents and earthly possessions that fit in a large backpack and a suitcase is not representative of the majority of H1B workers but the specter of deportation is not very scary to me. The last two times were just opportunities to travel.

It starts to become more relevant when you start to make more ties, and realize you might suddenly be yanked away from your new friends (and possibly SO).

I'm certainly not saying it's the motivation in every case - doubtless it is often about costs and sometimes genuinely about talent.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#214
post #84
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im afraid that is a different debate on remote v/s local. There are both advantages and disadvantages to either. In this specific case, it is quite clear they really wanted their team to be together (i.e. on site) and went to extraordinary length to do that. BTW there are few visa's (if any) for "limited" or occasional visits to the US.

I'm pretty sure such visas exist, as my team has employees in four countries and we try to meet in person every quarter.

"Meeting" is different from "working". You can, of course, get a tourist Visa and meet and talk about stuff, and maybe even work out of a US office for a couple of weeks. But I think that working for a couple of months would not be permitted...

Actually, I'm not sure of the law here. As long as you're not employed by the US division, are not paid by them and are just using the US as a place to work for their overseas subsidiary....I'm not sure how that pans out, legality wise.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#215
Regardless of the content (which is interesting), the "discuss on HN" link at the end of the article prompts you to submit the article to HN, thereby giving it free upvotes. This is a dark pattern and not a practice we should encourage. Flagged, and I encourage other people to do the same.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#216

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

>It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt.

So does buying hardware that's made overseas. Interesting that this argument is made now, but how many local programmers ever bought anything electronic which was a little more expensive but made in the US instead of overseas?

Why do software jobs deserve protection but hardware jobs do not? The amount of hypocrisy here is nauseating.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#217

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

Then that makes you an exceptional case, and implies that you work for a good company. But neither of those points represent how this program is more widely (ab)used.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#218

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

[deleted]

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#219

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

[deleted]

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#220

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

>Nor would I want to hire someone who was desperate.

If you won't, someone else will, and they'll outcompete you.

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