Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#151

Post by illumen » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #142

makmanalp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without commenting on your opinions, let me touch upon one point you make: > I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position. Alyandon below also says: > I worked as a cont…

I can't name names. I can tell you one was the kind of company you're probably thinking about, and the other was a publicly-traded (now) supply chain company.

If you can't provide any evidence, you're making it up.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#152

Post by rayiner » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

codegeek wrote: post #94

rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

"My parents didn't leave their lives half a world away to come here for the weather." Agreed. They probably came here for a better life and opportunity just like most immigrants. What is your point though ? Your parents immigrated here and now you think " immigration is already too much". I am not attacking you personally but trying to understand your point. What is this culture and institution that you talk about ?

My parents came here for various reasons, but one of the straws that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was my dad giving in to paying a bribe just to get telephone service installed at his house. Where I come from, Bangladesh, that is just how you do things. And the institutions you have to deal with were created by people who think that's okay. I think non-immigrants take for granted how amazing, and fragile, it is to have a society where you don't assume you'll have to pay a bribe to get your phone service installed. Or to be able to rely on institutions created by people who don't assume you'll have to pay a bribe to get your phone service installed.

I'm not against immigration. I'm for preserving the virtues of American culture that you don't see in a lot of other places (even among the wealthier and more educated folks in other places): attitudes towards corruption, women, racism, homosexuality, the environment, entrepreneurship, risk, personal happiness, family relationships and hierarchy, etc.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#153

Post by mattxxx » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

The discussion about H1B's is becoming so polarized. As an Engineer, I want to work with other good engineers . You can really good talent from abroad - or you can get really bad talent that costs less. So it's not black-and-white.

I think whatever systems are in-place are undermining talent, in a field where it's so hard to see how good a worker is before they come aboard. So it's not even about external vs. domestic talent; it's the hiring that is fucked.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#154

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #75

bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

> the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration

Says who? The permanent ecologically sustainable population of the U.S. is under 200 million. Supporting the current population at the current standard of living involves running down aquifers and top soil and fisheries. We could certainly cram in 600 million at a far lower standard of living. Why should the people favor a reduced lifestyle?

Where exactly are the added millions going to live? There aren't really viable sites for new cities. No, with continued high immigration we're really talking about adding massively to both sprawl and overcrowding in existing cities. Citizens rightly regard both these developments negatively.

The demographic trends in America were set in the 1960s and 70s to level off the population at a pretty comfortable figure around 200 million. With the massively increased immigration of recent decades we're going to hit somewhere well over double that. To what advantage? The parallel America with a much lower population would be a much nicer place to live for the vast majority of people.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#155

Post by vonsnowman » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #67

x0x0 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yuri is wrong. h1b is absolutely about costs -- unless they claim (a somewhat fantastical claim) there is nobody in the US at all who could fit their needs. A claim which is trivially untrue. Those people exist and could be hired. Why isn't Yuri hiring them? Because of the price they demand. In fact, the way you can tell this is bs and it is entirely about price is AeroFS opened a canadian subsidiary! I wonder how mu…

That depends. If they need someone they can abuse with the threat of deportation...

FYI, I am the employee mentioned in that post and your statement is just hilarious.

Obviously, a young French guy with disposable income, no dependents and earthly possessions that fit in a large backpack and a suitcase is not representative of the majority of H1B workers but the specter of deportation is not very scary to me. The last two times were just opportunities to travel.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#156

Post by logfromblammo » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

bradleybuda wrote: post #43

bokonist wrote: post #12

Seems like the sensible solution would be to auction off the immigration quota slots. Decide on some number of business/talent based visas to be issued each year. Then do a rolling auction of the visas. If a person gets a visa, comes to America, but then does not like their job and goes home, the company gets a prorated refund. If the person stays more than five years, they get a green card automatically and are free…

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

The U.S. only has unlimited capacity for immigration if the composition of the immigrants already closely resembles the overall U.S economy and culture.

If 100% of immigrants are neurosurgeons, that simultaneously gluts the domestic labor market for neurosurgery and creates shortages in all the other jobs that typically support neurosurgeons, down to the cafe baristas and hairdressers.

What you want is to import the right immigrants at the right time. If you get an unbalanced mix, the economy will be disrupted as surely as a washing machine with socks on one side and jeans on the other.

Limiting the absolute number per year allows the economy to adjust as the new participants come in. Being a little smarter about the different skill sets that come in would allow greater absolute numbers to immigrate and assimilate.

But I don't particularly trust the bureaucracy to calculate the numbers that would provide the greatest overall economic benefits, either, so perhaps a stupider and simpler system that largely eliminates the need for bureaucratic decision-making would be best.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#157

Post by lnkmails » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

From the other side, I see a lot of over paid "local" workers that spend a lot of time talking and doing no work. Why don't you take your honesty to your bosses and tell them that they are abusing the H1B system to save money? This is my biggest problem with honesty that comes with anonymity. Look, I am not saying there is no abuse of H1B. That is not the government's problem nor it is the problem of the immigrants. It is the American corporates that you work for that abuse the system. You are diverting all your anger towards people who want the experience to live elsewhere. Regarding us not assimilating into your culture, I have no idea what that means. On one hand, I see a lot of people moving to SF just for the variety in ethnicity so you can all be pseudo liberal and then start complaining about ethnic divide.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#158

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:12 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #116

DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

I hate to say this, but in your position I'd suggest you collude with your employer to fake a degree.

[deleted]

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#159

Post by msie » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:12 PM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #116

DigitalSea wrote: post #106

The experience for getting a working visa in the US is absolutely atrocious, and let me preface this with the fact I am Australian and Australia offers an E3 visa which allows you to work in the US indefinitely for the sponsoring company. It doesn't have the same issues as a H1-B visa (lottery, restrictions on when you can apply), but offers just as much flexibility and power. I am currently a remote worker for a US…

I hate to say this, but in your position I'd suggest you collude with your employer to fake a degree.

And you just said: "There's standard, normalized ways immigrants have come to the US for a long time now."

But for this guy's sake you'll make an exception? Is that because he won't form an ethnic ghetto?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#160

Post by angersock » Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 6:13 PM UTC

teacup50 wrote: post #115

angersock wrote: post #31

I can't be the only person from the Midwest who noticed that list of internship rates. Fuck me, I'm getting paid half that per month. WTF.

Have you looked at Bay Area rent lately?

Somebody's got to take advantage of these kids.

More seriously--there's a lot of talent outside that place, and if companies were willing to pay those same wages (or even 80%) elsewhere in the country, this "talent shortage" would disappear as soon as the first paycheck cleared.