Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is plenty of material about why hydrogen isn't really better just a google away. Plenty of smart people have evaluated it and realized it's not worth it. Toyota is the only company left that still pretends that it's relevant... while slowly electrifying their fleet.
Most of that stuff is written by people with a financial motivation and are likely biased. You can’t take them too seriously. Toyota, Hyundai, Honda are all investing and expanding investment. That’s for passenger cars specifically. Once you go into industrial and heavy transportation it’s a vast group of companies. People who are paying attention knows that there’s a major revolution afoot. The people with tunnel vi…
Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
271–279 of 279 posts
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
Should we allow a free market to continue producing vehicles that contribute to the degradation of the planet?
Can we not pretend that electric cars don't pollute the planet? To be clear, I am a big fan of electric cars. But this seems to have become another one of those things that has become so polarised you're not even allowed to express healthy skepticism.
EV pollute the planet, but so does everything else - including making the food that's turned into energy spent on cycling. It's not all that clear cut.
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
Electrolyzers are expensive and capital intensive enough that we don't anticipate that green hydrogen will compete with natural-gas derived hydrogen on cost before 2030. By 2030 batteries will haven fallen dramatically in cost. It's not enough to show that electrolyzers are falling in cost, it also needs to be shown that they are falling faster than batteries, and will be able to catch up. That's the missing logical…
Except that electrolyzers have plunged in cost in way that's catching many people off guard. And 2030 is just 9 years from now. Even if what you say is true, disruption is still within a decade's time. If you wait until that event has already happened before you start investing, then it will be too late. So basically everyone has to start investing in fuel cells right away or risk being disrupted. I don't think peopl…
The laws of physics demand that compressing hydrogen so that a usable amount can be stored in a vehicle requires energy.
So by saying "almost $0" you're saying that electricity is "even less than almost $0". Which might be correct, industrial scale solar PV energy is cheap and will get a lot cheaper over the next decade.
But of course electric cars benefit from cheap electricity even more than hydrogen cars do.
> In fact, on a cost per range basis, the latest Mirai is already cheaper than competing battery electric cars.
Sure, if you use grey hydrogen created from natural gas rather than green hydrogen created from water and electricity. Grey hydrogen is far from carbon-free.
> It's batteries that will have trouble keeping up on cost
That's a strong claim, given that battery prices have historically dropped 80% per decade and show no signs of slowing down.
> These companies might too be dead within a decade or so.
The lack of hydrogen filling stations is the biggest roadblock for this among many big roadblocks.
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most of that stuff is written by people with a financial motivation and are likely biased. You can’t take them too seriously. Toyota, Hyundai, Honda are all investing and expanding investment. That’s for passenger cars specifically. Once you go into industrial and heavy transportation it’s a vast group of companies. People who are paying attention knows that there’s a major revolution afoot. The people with tunnel vi…
The big EV industry doesn't want hydrogen to succeed!!! Are you even listening to yourself?
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that electrolyzers have plunged in cost in way that's catching many people off guard. And 2030 is just 9 years from now. Even if what you say is true, disruption is still within a decade's time. If you wait until that event has already happened before you start investing, then it will be too late. So basically everyone has to start investing in fuel cells right away or risk being disrupted. I don't think peopl…
The laws of physics and chemistry demand that producing hydrogen and oxygen from water requires at least as much energy as is released when they are combined in a fuel cell. The laws of physics demand that compressing hydrogen so that a usable amount can be stored in a vehicle requires energy. So by saying "almost $0" you're saying that electricity is "even less than almost $0". Which might be correct, industrial sca…
The notion that batteries are superior than fuel cells at utilizing low cost electricity is fundamentally in error. People have traditionally made the argument batteries are more efficient, but the gap is continuously shrinking and likely will become a non-factor. Meanwhile, you benefit from lower weight, less material cost, faster refueling, cold weather performance, and various other advantages. So it could easily be more cost effective to power a car using hydrogen than with cheap electricity than with batteries in the majority of cases.
> Sure, if you use grey hydrogen created from natural gas rather than green hydrogen created from water and electricity. Grey hydrogen is far from carbon-free.
You're conflating two different things: fuel cells and green hydrogen production. Fuel cell cars are in a lot of ways already competitive with battery electric on their own merits. Hydrogen production is going to be dependent on electrolysis. Even so, as electrolysis costs come down this too will be become cheaper than fossil fuel sources of hydrogen
It's also a lazy argument, as fuel cells have the possibility of being zero emissions the same way batteries have. In fact, this was repeated against battery electric cars historically, since electricity production is heavily based on fossil fuels. So repeating it against fuel cell cars is just playing the role of luddite again.
> That's a strong claim, given that battery prices have historically dropped 80% per decade and show no signs of slowing down.
That's from a very high base and is misleading. Regardless, fuel cell costs are also dropping extremely fast, but unlike batteries don't have the floor of material costs. It's likely that fuel cells will be much cheaper than batteries in the long run. Toyota for instance believes that a fuel cell car can cost the same as a Corolla. Electrolysis costs are also dropping in a similar way and you can expect green hydrogen production to be minimally capital intensive.
> The lack of hydrogen filling stations is the biggest roadblock for this among many big roadblocks.
It's starting to look like the hydrogen refueling infrastructure will be cheaper than the equivalent battery charging infrastructure. Some recent studies are suggesting this.
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
No it isn't. The ID.3 problems are real, VW are working on software updates to fix the problems and have emailed the owners to provide instructions for work arounds.
You do know that multiple people have actually died from Teslas driving themselves into trucks and center dividers? The worst part with the most recent center-divider crash is that it was an regression following an OTA update, demonstrating that OTA can cause just as much harm as good.
> most recent center-divider crash is that it was an regression following an OTA update,
DO you have reference for that? I would be interested to read up on that, I have an interest as I have a Model S.
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#277This includes hybrids. It's really questionable to incentivize hybrid vehicles and selling it as a electrified success. Discussions about the efficiency/environmental impact/... of combustion v.s. electric aside, it's obvious that driving a huge battery around will burn more fuel. I think this can only be seen as a success for electrified motors if it's proven that they're actually being used.
Plug-in hybrids used for routine urban driving (commutes, errands, etc...) are effectively EVs. I don't have usage data for Norway specifically, but the numbers that have been thrown around elsewhere are something like 20-30% of the driving is done using the gasoline engine. Almost everyone celebrating "electric cars" in that headline is really cheering for carbon reduction, and this for sure qualifies.
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#278Norway has been leading the pack in this regard for quite some time. A few Government incentives, both financial and for instance the ability to use dedicated bus lanes (now discontinued in Oslo I think?) majorly helped. One of the large issues around uptake is simply infrastructure. Here in Ireland, it is still patchy at best. We had an EV (Nissan) from around 2016 but gave it up in 2020 as there was simply too much…
You can still use the bus lanes in Oslo and in teh rest of Norway. :) I live here, but it also says on Statens Vegvesen site: (in Norwegian): https://www.vegvesen.no/trafikkinformasjon/langs-veien/trafi... . It's nice to avoid traffic jams. :) I drive occasionally and the first time I drove an electric last year, I barely made it to a charging station an hour outside Oslo and not close to another city. I had to wait…
Edit: I found a link about it - https://www.thelocal.no/20150506/norway-strips-electric-cars... - perhaps it has since been reversed again?
Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
"is denying my ability to live a car-free daily life" Do they have police in place to watch if you own/use a car?
In nearly all of the US, it is only legal to build a city in ways that require a car for daily life. For example, it is illegal for a small grocery store to exist within a mile of my house. It is also illegal to build housing close to where jobs have been located. The design of cities has been centrally planned to manufacture car dependence, and exclude the possibility of biking or walking. It also eliminates the pos…