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We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

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Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#261

Post by barney54 »

systemtest wrote: post #177
dcolkitt wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Holland is entirely flat, has an average high of 71 in the summer, and rarely if ever gets icy. The Dutch experience simply doesn't translate to most of America because of the terrain and climate. Elderly people people will die if you make them walk in the Florida summer. 7 year old children lack the leg-strength to bike up California hills. Both groups are likely to slip and crack their heads…

I had no problem biking in 100+ degrees weather up a 50 meter hill. Just take a shower when you arrive at work.

I agree with this and I have done this for years. However, having to take a shower is an extra source of friction that makes biking a bit more challenging in hot climates.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#262

Post by scarejunba »

scarejunba wrote: post #25
smt88 wrote: post #2

> Cars are the slowest, lowest-bandwidth forms of urban transportation. This is the kind of thing I read a lot in micromobility advocacy articles, but it seems like it can't be true. How can a bike, scooter, or moped be either faster or higher-bandwidth than a car? Also, serious question: if electric SDCs became widespread, would it still make sense to advocate things like bikes? You can't transport a family of three…

I’m faster than a car in downtown SF on my jump bike. Even on market I’m even because no one makes a green from one green.

Honestly didn't think I said anything weird. I imagine throughput is high because lots of us can do this. I'm not a hater, I actually have an SUV. I just also ride electric downtown.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#263

Post by jka »

briandear wrote: post #166
socialist_coder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mom with three young kids in tow Ha! Go see how they do it in Europe. Bike trailers, extra seats in the front & back, built in cargo decks, longer bikes; there are lots of fancy ways to load a lot of kids & cargo onto your bike. And don't forget that kids can ride their own bikes too! My kid was riding a bike with me to daycare at 3-4 years old. Your thinking is too car-centric!

But why? It takes a long time to get kids helmeted up and they don’t ride very fast. Not everyone has the leisure to ride bikes everywhere. My kids schools are 10 miles from home and 5 miles from each other. Even with a dedicated bike lane, it would still take dramatically more work to drive. Then, if it rains.. I have to worry about it rain gear for everyone. Then if one kid gets sick at school, I’m supposed to ride…

Regarding quick evacuation - both in urban environments and rural, cars may not be the great option that you'd initially assume they might be.

In rural areas with few roads and sudden population movement, those roads can quickly become congested. This was a big issue for the city of Paradise during evacuation from the Camp Fire last year[0].

In urban environments, large vehicle movements can also become a public safety issue. Try commuting out of a major city at 5pm on a Friday and you'll frequently find delays and congestion at freeway entrances - exactly as you would during a mass exodus.

That's not to mention the rush on gas stations[1] which can occur as a subset of car owners realize they have to fill up before leaving town. This in itself will lead to delays and congestion - and even if you yourself have set aside plenty of fuel, you still suffer as a result of those who are less prepared.

Neither of these urban problems affect cyclists who can continue even in the presence of road traffic. I'd imagine they'd in fact be more at-risk from frantic and desperate vehicle owners who suddenly realize that using a car is failing and that they want a plan B.

Regarding CVS at 2am -- cycling at night can be surprisingly enjoyable since the roads and surroundings are quiet. In some places with cold/wet weather - or with larger distances to travel - it might be less pleasant though.

[0] - https://www.apnews.com/e856b9efef7b426a90fd175510cd54dd

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1781922/

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#264

Post by claudeganon »

rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

It may seem tangential, but I think that biking culture can’t really take off in the US without universal, good quality healthcare. I’ve had a couple of friends suffer some serious and very expensive accidents and it has certainly made me hesitant to ride as much. When combined with the fact that US car culture has created circumstances in many states where you can kill bicyclists and more or less get away it, seems like a losing bet.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#265

Post by lm28469 »

hannob wrote: post #77
glangdale wrote: post #46

I'm curious as to what planet you'd have to be living on to think that if we have billions of dollars to spare on huge transport infrastructure projects that aren't cars, that it should go to bikes and not public transport + walkability. I'm guessing it's a special magic planet with startlingly good weather year-round, without disabled people, where everyone gets to age into spry Euro-oldsters. Not wanting to kick of…

This "good weather" argument against biking is so bizarre and disconnected from reality... Have you ever noticed that the most biking friendly places in the world are in middle-to-northern europe? Copenhagen isn't a particularly sunny place. Many people don't care, if you give them good infrastructure they'll cycle with every weather.

A $20 poncho and some rain cover for your shoes -> you're good in most temperate places.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#266

Post by lm28469 »

fourneau wrote: post #142
Fricken wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Edmonton, North America's northernmost major city. I've been cycling year round for about 15 years. It went down to -42 in February, and I was out riding. I've never had frostbite. I've still got all my fingers and toes. Although it isn't enough fingers and toes to count all the people I've known personally who've been killed or crippled in car accidents.

It’s definitely not impossible, but it’s riskier. My point is that we default to easy and comfortable when given a choice, and cycling in -42 is neither. We won’t see mass adoption of cycling in these areas, regardless of infrastructure, unless we forced people to do it... and I don’t think pushing the majority of people towards enduring that kind of weather is something we should do, when there are alternatives.

> we default to easy and comfortable when given a choice

Yes and that's exactly where 90% of our pollution/climate issues are coming from: convenience.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#267

Post by Tade0 »

barney54 wrote: post #260
rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

I agree that it's a balancing act, but what are we balancing? What are we maximizing for? It's critical we ask the right questions. For example, why has bike commuting declined recently in the United States? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-w... It's not like cities like San Francisco and Seattle became bike hostile (if they have, I haven't heard it). Bike commuting is only used by 1 percent…

What are we maximizing for?

I guess it's a multi-criteria decision problem. On one hand we want people to get where they want to as quickly as possible, on the other we want the city to be "liveable" and safe.

Only "livability" isn't measurable here. IIRC the Dutch maximised mostly for safety.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#268

Post by naravara »

barney54 wrote: post #260
rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

I agree that it's a balancing act, but what are we balancing? What are we maximizing for? It's critical we ask the right questions. For example, why has bike commuting declined recently in the United States? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/01/02/bike-w... It's not like cities like San Francisco and Seattle became bike hostile (if they have, I haven't heard it). Bike commuting is only used by 1 percent…

I think declining transit ridership and bike commuting can both be partly attributed to heavily subsidized rideshare services. Once those things hit prices commensurate to their actual cost of operation you might see that trend reverse.

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#269

Post by rapnie »

claudeganon wrote: post #264
rapnie wrote: post #232

What I see a lot in this thread is people's either/or opinions. Love cars / hate bycicles or vice versa. No. It is a balancing act, where cars, bycicles and public transport co-exist, and infrastructure is developed strategically in smart ways and in a prolonged effort. When I was young in The Netherlands for the most part the cars still dominated the streets. Over time I've seen cities and road networks gradually be…

It may seem tangential, but I think that biking culture can’t really take off in the US without universal, good quality healthcare. I’ve had a couple of friends suffer some serious and very expensive accidents and it has certainly made me hesitant to ride as much. When combined with the fact that US car culture has created circumstances in many states where you can kill bicyclists and more or less get away it, seems…

Yes, these may be very inhibiting factors. It's a bit of a chicken/egg problem too, because once bycicle culture grows, road safety also increases significantly:

> Despite the relative safety compared to automobiles, the number of fatalities and hospitalizations from cycling is significantly greater in the United States compared to other western states such as Germany, Canada, and the Netherlands. In a 2014 analysis, incidence of cycling death took place at a mean rate of 4.7 deaths per 100 million kilometers cycled in the U.S., compared to 1.3 deaths per 100 million kilometers in Germany, 1.0 in the Netherlands, and 1.1 in Denmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_safety#Crashes

Re: We Need to Dream Bigger Than Bike Lanes

#270

Post by AstralStorm »

greglindahl wrote: post #230
AstralStorm wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably a function of distances between living space and work. Beyond 10 km the car catches up and starts to get ahead in total travel time. Public transport is meant to close this gap but there's not enough for people, much less bicycles, especially long distance. So it gets crowded. The car is universal until you run out of parking space.

Do roads not get crowded where you live? Here in Silicon Valley, there's no more room to widen 101.

They do, but not enough to ensure longer distances are inefficient.

And especially the "ingress" roads do not block - from suburbs and further districts.

Now that is Poland, Warsaw, the city is designed to be more car friendly than most capitals in EU, more spread out, while still keeping strong public transport and bike as options.

The parts that block up are near choke points, City center, bridges, some big intersections.

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