In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete • Hacker News Board

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#261

Post by matz1 » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:02 PM UTC

MichaelBurge wrote: post #213

nicky0 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you linked to states that 59% of Americans always or usually pay off the full amount each month.

To me, "most" implies "at least 95%". That's because it's used to exclude a possibility: If most programming languages have if statements, then if I hear about your new language I can assume it has if statements without checking further. To use a simple majority means that you'd have to accept a simple statement like "Most programmers use Javascript"[1], and that's too weak to use for any reasoning. [1] https://web.a…

No, it can also mean more than half.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#262

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:03 PM UTC

weego wrote: post #193

dis-sys wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tapping the card to the NFC terminal is super easy. You don't even need to take your card out of the wallet if its in front. The whole point here is how to entirely get rid of the wallet. your ID, your cards, receipts, parking tickets etc should all be digital. in fact, that is exactly what WeChat/Alipay are offering or battling for. WeChat based ID card with approval from the Public Security Bureau: https://www.hu…

I'm more likely to always have a wallet on me than a phone on me. The base notion that a phone is literally essential to daily life but a wallet is not has yet is not a proven assumption.

Many Chinese don't drive, so going wallet free is more feasible.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#263

Post by dis-sys » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

Lxr wrote: post #76

NamTaf wrote: post #52

Everyone in Australia just uses paypass/paywave contactless payment with their credit cards. I rarely carry any signifiant amount of crash for that reason. It's essentially the same as using your phone except you use your credit card and doesn't require a PIN or anything for signature is no longer allowed . Without having used WeChat's approach with QR code scanning, it doesn't seem that different for the end user in…

A major difference is that you can pay any other person with Alipay. If a friend buys you lunch, you pay them back by scanning a QR code on their phone.

or devices

there are currently 10 million ofo/mobike shared bikes, 700k were added to Beijing in a single month (May 2017). there is simply no way you can attach a card reader to every single one of them.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#264

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

urethrafranklin wrote: post #236

muninn_ wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you get this 30% number?

Typical minimum credit charge is 30 cents plus a percentage of the gross.

These are very high interchange numbers. I think it was bad like that in the past, but not today.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#265

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:07 PM UTC

aylmao wrote: post #162

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFC is better than QR codes in many many many ways. You don't have to line up the codes with the phones, paying is much faster, and the "1 payer at a time" limitation is actually the 99.9% use case for payments.

QR requires pointing, but NFC requires proximity; I can't imagine a street musician using NFC. NFC requires special equipment. QRs can be displayed on screens and printed on paper which makes them incredibly more accessible and far-reaching. NFC is invisible, which looks better IMO that a block of pixels with the occasional ill-fitting logo in the center. But tbh at the end of the day they are doing the same thing, t…

I agree that QR codes killer feature is that they are extremely cheap to deploy, which is why they've caught on in china. But they aren't better than NFC, even if cheaper.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#266

Post by tormeh » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #244

coliveira wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're trying to advance the argument that democracy is all nice and good to determine minor local issues, but it is not good enough to determine the next president? Seriously?

I read the statement as the US system - both at the state and the federal levels - is working the way it was designed to work. Given its growth - in both population and territory - since its founding, that it is still in existence with the same constitution is no small feat.

>that it is still in existence with the same constitution is no small feat

I would call that a defeat. The US constitution is clearly past its sell-by date.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#267

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #224

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFC is better than QR codes in many many many ways. You don't have to line up the codes with the phones, paying is much faster, and the "1 payer at a time" limitation is actually the 99.9% use case for payments.

> You don't have to line up the codes with the phones A good QR reader does not require much lining up, just pointing the phone in the general direction of the code is sufficient, I'm consistently surprised by how fast some QR readers match codes. That's significantly less work than having to bring your phone right next to a reader.

Every time my friend and I went to costas, I would check out much faster than him with a basic unionpay debit card while he was using alipay and it took time for the baristas to setup their equipment then to do the scan.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#268

Post by FussyZeus » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:09 PM UTC

thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

Your point is slightly undermined however in that China didn't build any of this. Their "inferior" product, and even the big current one (WeChat) is all based on technology pioneered by other countries.

While we were putting together the first apps, China was still by an large a poverty-ridden manufacturing-exclusive economy, Hong Kong being the exception. It's only in the last 25 years or so that they've finally opened up and started really growing, and when they did, all of this technology was already more or less proven and available for them to use.

The real test will be the next 50 years or so, when these various systems will need to be upgraded to see if they can keep the same pace and keep everything exactly as, for lack of a better term, shiny. :) So far they've done well, I hope they continue to do so.

It's also worth noting: All that's been accomplished could have been accomplished without the Chinese central planners too; the real problem for America and countries like us is the crony capitalism, not the lack of central planning.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#269

Post by poizan42 » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #134

svckr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we have a clear distinction between credit- and debit cards. And I guess the culture leans more toward the "saving not loaning" model nickrio describes. So for me it is a conscious decision wether I pay with my bank account or credit. Unlike China however, adoption of digital, low-barrier payments is extremely low here. I mean, hell, we're mostly buying paper bus tickets, while local public transport…

The Nordic countries also have that distinction, indeed credit cards are often charged 1-3% in fees, while debit cards are usually free. That hasn't prevented the demise of cash, and MobilePay, Swish etc are popular for personal and commercial transactions. The RFID card works on all public transport all across Denmark. Sweden has regional systems. I don't know about elsewhere. The leader for this is London, where an…

Most Danes use a combined visa/dankort which is a credit card but doesn't usually incur a fee. Also generally we don't have a seperate credit line, it goes directly to your bank account as soon as the transaction is registered (and simply overdraws it if you don't have sufficient funds). A lot of danes also seems somewhat confused about the debit/credit card distinction, because the only difference most people see is whether it allows you to overdraw your account.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#270

Post by yufeng66 » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 1:29 PM UTC

One important factor is the Chinese government view cash as necessary evil. They prefer the money to be in the digital form to avoid issues such as grey economy and difficulty in collecting tax. As such they refuse to issue large denomination cash bills. The largest RMB bill is only 100, which is about 13 USD. It was first issued in 1988, when the nominal GDP was only about 2% of the current size. Obviously this makes large transaction in cash difficulty. Thus created an opening for alipay and wechat.