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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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251–260 of 809 posts

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#251
post #62

Typical medium unit at market place is only around 3K compared to your offering at 12k. Why is it so expensive https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pioneer-36-000-BTU-3-Ton-18-SEER...

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

First - this thing is awesome so nice going.

Second - yes, significantly better communication on the website is going to help. Some economic analysis (the section of savings is ambiguous) with specifics, specifics on how it would look with financing, for different house sizes etc would get a lot of people across the hump. It's quite unclear to me if this thing makes sense financially.

Third - nice going, this really is awesome.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#252
post #93
post #64

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room? We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermo…

My main problem with mini-splits is that they are just ugly. I can't get past it. Neither can my wife nor others I've talked to. My engineer brain loves the idea, but I just don't want them on my walls nor do I want five different remotes laying around. I suspect thats a problem for many others too.

Have you looked at cassette style mini-splits? Nothing on the wall's you'd just replace the vent in your ceiling. They are quite a bit larger than your standard vent though.

As far as remotes, there are a bunch of universal remote control options and smart (wifi/bluetooth) based controllers.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#253
post #64

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room? We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermo…

You could always use smart vents (e.g. https://flair.co/ ) to eliminate some of the inefficiencies you mentioned with ducted systems.

Yes! This is what I wanted to do first but we only had an aging furnace and no AC. I've read that you can run into problems with back pressure if you close too many vents, though.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#254

My HVAC is 14 years old so we’re actually planning on replacing it sometime in the next 24 months. I’ve talked to a couple of HVAC companies already because I want more cooling power. When it’s above 100F (which it is for 3+ months of the year) my current system struggles to hold 80F. If we use the oven on a hot day, we may not get the temperature back down for days. Our winters are relatively mild (we don’t get much…

You don't want an over-sized system.

They short cycle.

An over-sized system can quickly cool to the thermostat setting, but leave the latent heat in the water vapor in the air.

So you experience the "feels like" temperature...it's not the heat, as they say.

A properly sized system runs long enough to condense water vapor and with it remove the latent heat from the air.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody will build a heat-pump system with an on/off control system like that because the performance will be awful. Certainly not an air-to-water system.

It already exists. Check out Mr. Cool Universal and Gree Flexx. Heat pumps that work with a normal thermostat exist. Most of the info about this stuff online is trash because HVAC is the most toxic online community compared to any other contracting profession. One of the reasons highly efficient mini splits haven’t took off in the USA- the self proclaimed experts want to charge $2000 to drill a hole and charge a line…

I've often wondered why this is. My best guess is that the EPA cert (not actually hard to get) has been turned into some sort of weird quasi-guild-membership thing.

I can walk right in to a "to the trade" electrical or plumbing supply and they'll deal with me, no problem, no questions asked. With HVAC.. they won't even talk to you without an EPA number, even if you're not buying refrigerant.

DTC for whole house systems, if they can make the regulatory side work and provide a good customer experience, is the most important part of this.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#257
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something we'd definitely consider. Is the desire to have thermostat control via any third party? edit - The current plan has been Matter/thread Homekit + Google Home integration. We can expose at least temperature control via this to everyone.

For me the goal is 100% local control. I found out the other day that I couldn't turn my 8sleep mattress on because a guy down the street struck a fiber line. My bed was basically a $4k brick as soon as the internet went down. Look at it this way, it saves you money in server costs and performs much better.

WOW.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#258
The value prop on this is unbelievable. I've been trying to get an affordable whole home heat pump system for over a year now.

You've explained the problem space, the solution, and why your background is relevant, extremely well. Kudos. I put a preorder in.

Minor nit: the grey on white on your preorder page is practically unreadable for my eyes.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "and pay for and install maintain and upgrade the hardware" The problem is that the cost of running the kit has much less to do with the actual HVAC equipment itself and has to do with your house - which no sane HVAC company wants to make guarantees on. - What kind of insulation is in the walls? What's the R-value? The vast majority of home owners do not know this, and many homes have old and deeply substandard ins…

They could make an estimate based on the age and size of the house. Build in a profit margin.

Sure, the profit margin would have to be wide enough to account for a lot of variance.

Seriously, the insulation effects on your heating bills cannot be underestimated. Two houses that look superficially the same on the curb can have a margin of error that is a multiple of your heating bill, and that largely comes down to what the insulation is in the house.

Like we're not talking about "variances up to 30%" territory, we're talking "variances up to 300%" territory. No one is willing to make that guarantee without pulling off your drywall and examining the state of your insulation, not to mention the various behavioral issues others have brought up that vastly alter your bills.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#260

My HVAC is 14 years old so we’re actually planning on replacing it sometime in the next 24 months. I’ve talked to a couple of HVAC companies already because I want more cooling power. When it’s above 100F (which it is for 3+ months of the year) my current system struggles to hold 80F. If we use the oven on a hot day, we may not get the temperature back down for days. Our winters are relatively mild (we don’t get much…

Sounds like you may have had a whole-home energy audit done already -- including a blower door test? If not, I'd highly recommend it; I paid ~$500 for one a few years back which included thermal imaging, blower door tests, airflow measurements & calcs, current/draw measurements for all energy-consuming devices, thermal load calcs, etc. You may find better pricing even -- ours included a detached structure/office, and house is relatively large, multiple HVAC units/solar/pool/servers/etc...

In my case, I didn't end up with any super directly-actionable insights -- but it was still very well worth the money IMO. Even just to confirm that we weren't losing/"leaking" energy egregiously. The reality was, our household simply uses a lot of energy - hah.

I mention this all because, at the time, we were just about to replace our HVAC units & we had just installed solar + storage.

I'm located in Las Vegas -- summers are HOT (!) -- but our units (2x 5-ton Bosch heat pumps) can near-trivially keep us at 70F (or cooler), even on the hottest of days. I try to "push" the thermostats up a bit (we leverage a ToU energy plan), but there are days when the battle isn't worth having & the wife needs it at 69F -- and, even on the hottest Vegas days, we're able to hit it (can be expensive to do so, depending on time of day -- but is totally doable).

Edit to add -- Oversizing a system can very easily lead to issues; short-cycling, humidity control, etc. The ideal system will run nearly non-stop on "design" temperature days. See if you can find any highly-rated Bosch installers locally; they'd likely be willing to "oversize" a system since the Bosch units are "variable capacity" (inverter-driven), which means you're less susceptible to hitting some of the common issues/concerns when oversizing traditional systems. Alternatively, the high-end variable-speed options from major brands are generally well-regarded though they can be extremely expensive (the price segmentation, and resultant value propositions, are bordering on dubious IMO).

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