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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#121

I keep reading lots of horror stories about heat pumps. People are complaining about all of the following: - Enormous energy bills because under some conditions (cold weather?) heat pumps use a lot more energy than expected. - Heat pump equipment and radiators taking too much space in small homes. - Cold homes and/or a requirement to keep windows shut because heat pumps just don't generate enough heat. - Only suitabl…

You probably don't hear much from people who are happy with their heat pumps, because it's boring when it just works.

But, the competence required for heat pump sizing depends on the local climate. If you need more heat than the outside unit can gather, you're stuck with fallback heat, which is usually resistance strips, which is expensive. Some thermostats will call for the fallback heat anytime the requested temperature is 2-3 degrees F above the measured indoor temperature; if you've got a thermostat like that, you've got to be careful how you adjust it, and HVAC installers don't always explain that in ways that the users understand. Lots of people want it a few degrees colder when they're sleeping, but setting that up in the most straightforward way leads to resistance heating in the morning.

You're going to tend to want to windows of conditioned spaces closed, otherwise you're sending your heating budget out of the windows. Heat pumps are usually setup so you can directly regulate the temperature as desired, rather than boilers where it gets so hot that you need to open the windows to balance. If you want to run it with the windows open, you'd need more capacity, and you'd really need to convince your HVAC person. It probably makes more sense to look into a heat recovery ventilation system, which gets fresh air in without losing as much of the heat (or gaining as much heat if you're cooling). This is probably a norms thing.

Insulation helps reduce heating / cooling costs for sure, but if your home is less insulated than the norm, you just need a larger capacity system. That's another place where installer competence comes in. Actually measuring airflow and calculating requirements is unfortunately not very standard, there's a lot of rules of thumb or replacing with similar size units or the neighbor has X so use that. Again, this is workable in mild climates, but if you've got outside temperatures much below freezing, you need a competent installer, as capacity goes down quite a bit as the temperatures go down, and that's also when you need it the most. And, just insulating the heck out of an old home that was built to be drafty can cause issues with retained moisture and mold; it needs to be done carefully and appropriately.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#122

I'd like a furnace company that has a financial incentive to keep my house warm and efficient. Todays furnace/heat pump makers test their kit in a lab under perfect conditions, and then when it is installed it often costs double or more to run compared to what the datasheet says.[1] I would like the company to say "we will keep your house at 70F, year round, for $3000/yr. We will pay any electric/gas use to achieve t…

> "and pay for and install maintain and upgrade the hardware" The problem is that the cost of running the kit has much less to do with the actual HVAC equipment itself and has to do with your house - which no sane HVAC company wants to make guarantees on. - What kind of insulation is in the walls? What's the R-value? The vast majority of home owners do not know this, and many homes have old and deeply substandard ins…

They could make an estimate based on the age and size of the house. Build in a profit margin.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#123

I recently purchased and installed a 3 ton MrCool Universal (Gree Flexx, I believe) with lineset for ~$4K shipped: https://hvacdirect.com/mrcool-universal-36-000-btu-heat-pump... Worked just fine during the Christmas arctic blast. We will see about longevity but at 1/3 of the price of your proposed units, I'm not worried about slapping a new one at any time. I am essentially on my own for service as no contractors wi…

My hats off to you for doing a DIY install. This is not a bad route to go if you enjoy/feel comfortable doing the work and don't care about air quality, smart thermostat integration, etc. Re contractors, we will have local contractor partners do the install and handle servicing, so you won't be left with an unserviceable system.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#124
Why would I go with you versus a Mitsubishi heat pump system that has years worth of supply chain, installers, trained techs, etc. behind them?

Is there a term for releasing products that are decades old in Asia/Europe in the US as new, cool, hip, etc.? Maybe "technology arbitrage"?

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#125
post #89
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

I'd be careful catering to everyone asking for everything but the kitchen sink. Creating a non-cloud capable system is dumb. If you have customers like commenter above maybe put in a clause in the contract that says they will receive a partial refund if/when there is an acquisition event during the warranty period and bump up their price by 20%.

> Creating a non-cloud capable system is dumb.

For a system that absolutely doesn’t need a “cloud” to operate?

But this is my second concern.

First is availability of replacement parts after the get bought out and they shut off the servers.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#126
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would your company be willing to provide an open-source local-first websocket-based integration with https://www.home-assistant.io/ or use the new Matter + Thread standard to provide it for everyone? If that's available, this would be my top choice as I'm actively shopping for all-electric heat pumps

It's something we'd definitely consider. Is the desire to have thermostat control via any third party? edit - The current plan has been Matter/thread Homekit + Google Home integration. We can expose at least temperature control via this to everyone.

Consider it is as a competitive advantage.

An API that is public, well-documented, and easy for other systems to securely integrate with would mean that customers get the integration they want. If someone builds a better way to utilize your system, then you just got value-add on your product at basically zero cost.

Amazon can hook Alexa into it. Google can hook their Home thing into it. And whatever comes next, whatever doesn't even exist today, should have an easy time integrating, continuing to add value.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#127
post #24

Those are beautiful looking units. It's a cool idea to focus on giving something very pedestrian and utilitarian a nice cosmetic overhaul. I just replaced radiators with a heat pump install. I had a few questions about your units: What are "backup heating strips?" They're mentioned in passing when talking about cold weather, but I imagine there is some meat here. Also, even though many heat pumps work in cold weather…

How did you replace your radiators? Did you have to install ducts, or did you find a cost-effective way to have a heat pump heat the water for your radiator system?

Good ways to upgrade homes that use radiators to use heat pump heating seems like a big gap in the market right now (though, not sure if this is just a market problem or a gap in the technology, since my understanding is that radiators need higher temperatures than forced air systems).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#128
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't. If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for ins…

What do you mean? There are variable speed furnaces that can be controlled via a normal thermostat and a 4-wire thermostat setup. Like you said, though, there's no open standard so that can be an issue, but it's standard wiring. https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ (halfway down - "Communicating HVAC System") https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... (deeper dive into Communicating vs Non-Commun…

Well, that just makes it worse! OP strongly implies that there is no good variable-speed solution, but if the industry already has an assortment of products, what exactly are they even selling?!

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#129

I'd like a furnace company that has a financial incentive to keep my house warm and efficient. Todays furnace/heat pump makers test their kit in a lab under perfect conditions, and then when it is installed it often costs double or more to run compared to what the datasheet says.[1] I would like the company to say "we will keep your house at 70F, year round, for $3000/yr. We will pay any electric/gas use to achieve t…

+1

THAT would be disruptive to the market.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#130
I have a 5400sqft house with 3 thermostats driving 3 natural gas furnaces and 2 air conditioners. System is loud, works poorly, and is expensive to operate. Outdoor temps from 30 - 110 degF. Can you help?

I do not want the system connected to the internet.

Currently paying $0.36/kWh for electricity and $2.80/therm for natgas.

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