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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#61

Post by sokoloff »

cmui wrote: post #57
aaomidi wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will not buy this without a fully unlocked everything. This company is going to wait a few years and then charge you a shit ton for subscription to keep using your device. No thanks, and honestly whoever goes with this is going to regret it if they don't make changes to their software. Pick one: - Sell the device - Sell the software If you do both, you're going to alienate your customers and get regulatory wrath on…

I understand the concern around lock in. There is a technical hurdle to optimized thermostat variable speed heat pump interop. You have to turn the temperature error between setpoint and actual temperature into a compressor speed command and also factor in behavior such as defrost, compressor cycling limits, etc. So you have to have a communicating thermostat to fully utilize the efficiency of these variable speed he…

That's totally fair and reasonable. I still will demand that it be able to function in a bang-bang mode using dry contacts, especially from a new entrant to the market, because there's a fair risk that the unit will be in my house longer than your company is in business.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#62

Post by cmui »

sabareesh wrote: post #38

Typical medium unit at market place is only around 3K compared to your offering at 12k. Why is it so expensive https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pioneer-36-000-BTU-3-Ton-18-SEER...

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#63

Post by fauigerzigerk »

I keep reading lots of horror stories about heat pumps. People are complaining about all of the following:

- Enormous energy bills because under some conditions (cold weather?) heat pumps use a lot more energy than expected.

- Heat pump equipment and radiators taking too much space in small homes.

- Cold homes and/or a requirement to keep windows shut because heat pumps just don't generate enough heat.

- Only suitable for very well insulated homes.

Am I only reading this because people are more willing to speak up when something bad happens to them than when everything works as expected?

I worry that heat pumps are only viable under perfect conditions, installed by exceptionally competent engineers that hardly exist anywhere.

Please tell me it is not so! :)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#64

Post by kayson »

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room?

We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermostat. But if you want it, there were addons available to enable it.

The only downside in my mind is limited filtration, since the heat exchangers aren't very big, but we have some nice quiet hepa filters running that keep the air quality quite good.

This does leave CO2 as a potential problem, since its just recirculating inside air, but you'd have the same issue with a ducted system if the intake is inside, which most are.

You can always get an energy-recovering ventilation system, but that does require ducting. Interestingly, electric air mentions bringing fresh outside air in, but doesn't have any details about energy recovery. In fact the details are pretty sparse all around. I couldn't even find dimensions of the units!

All that being said, I hope this succeeds because heat pumps are way better than furnaces, and adding competition to this market will be great.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#65

Post by tguvot »

zainhoda wrote: post #47

I installed a Mr. Cool DIY mini split in my home for 2 rooms and so far it’s been great. That initial foray was a bit of an experiment. I’d like to just replace my central air now with a ducted heat pump but I haven’t found a good solution that doesn’t cost a ridiculous amount for a professional to install. I think you have a big problem with selling direct to homeowners. Most HVAC companies will not touch a homeowne…

same mrcool has ducted diy heatpumps

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#66

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

s_tec wrote: post #49
dawnerd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't. If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for ins…

What do you mean? There are variable speed furnaces that can be controlled via a normal thermostat and a 4-wire thermostat setup. Like you said, though, there's no open standard so that can be an issue, but it's standard wiring.

https://www.pickhvac.com/thermostat/ (halfway down - "Communicating HVAC System")

https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-conditioner/extras/comm... (deeper dive into Communicating vs Non-Communicating HVAC systems)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#67

Post by mrits »

londons_explore wrote: post #54
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I'd want to see a guarantee of "We will either keep running the servers forever, maintaining all current features, or we will opensource all the server side code, so you or someone else can keep running it". I'd want the code handed over to a third party to guarantee this (so the company can't walk back on their promise).

Statically there is a great chance the people that would guarantee will be replaced upon failure or success in an early state startup.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#68

Post by londons_explore »

I'd like a furnace company that has a financial incentive to keep my house warm and efficient.

Todays furnace/heat pump makers test their kit in a lab under perfect conditions, and then when it is installed it often costs double or more to run compared to what the datasheet says.[1]

I would like the company to say "we will keep your house at 70F, year round, for $3000/yr. We will pay any electric/gas use to achieve that, and pay for and install maintain and upgrade the hardware".

Then, the company has a direct incentive to keep costs down. The company can optimize maintenance schedules, energy contracts, algorithms to control fans and pumps, etc. Doing this, they should be able to keep total costs lower for the homeowner (who isn't an expert on any of those things)

[1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403212...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#69

Post by soheil »

> we have the industrial design and also largely understand how this will be built. The core technology risk is quite low, it's really about executing the scope well and also finding the right product that homeowners find compelling

How many HN readers are going to read this and think why not give it a try myself? Is this really a deposit collector campaign or more of a competitor generator.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#70

Post by heatpumpfan »

tguvot wrote: post #65
zainhoda wrote: post #47

I installed a Mr. Cool DIY mini split in my home for 2 rooms and so far it’s been great. That initial foray was a bit of an experiment. I’d like to just replace my central air now with a ducted heat pump but I haven’t found a good solution that doesn’t cost a ridiculous amount for a professional to install. I think you have a big problem with selling direct to homeowners. Most HVAC companies will not touch a homeowne…

same mrcool has ducted diy heatpumps

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