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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#41

Post by startupsfail »

dawnerd wrote: post #22
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

Maybe Europe market is ready for this.

Considering how unstable the residential electrical and internet grid is in the US (instead of being dug in, into the ground all the cables are hanging between the trees and there are constant failures), relying on that AND on the cloud for an essential service is a no-go.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#42

Post by aaomidi »

z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I will not buy this without a fully unlocked everything.

This company is going to wait a few years and then charge you a shit ton for subscription to keep using your device.

No thanks, and honestly whoever goes with this is going to regret it if they don't make changes to their software.

Pick one:

- Sell the device

- Sell the software

If you do both, you're going to alienate your customers and get regulatory wrath on you. Don't emulate Apple. They're going to get their ass handed to them in the near future.

Take it even a step further and make the code AGPL. That way you know you're protected if a company decides to steal from you.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#44

Post by skrause »

tony_cannistra wrote: post #9
neilalexander wrote: post #3

This is interesting but many systems like it fall at the first hurdle in countries like Britain where forced air is not the norm. How are products like this supposed to work in a house that is currently optimised for radiators and combi-boilers and with no existing air ducts?

not OP. My understanding is that situations like these really require installation of the (IMO, ugly) wall units ("mini-splits"). Current air-source heat pumps can't produce hot water at temperatures necessary to drive radiators.

It depends on your radiators and insulation. As a rule of thumb modern air-to-water heat pumps have a good efficiency up to a water temperature of 55 C. That can be enough if you have radiators with a large enough surface and no terrible insulation.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#45

Post by cmui »

z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get that energy optimization).

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#46

Post by heatpumpfan »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #11

If the Vapor aspect works well then this might make air source heat pumps tenable in cold countries. The current crop here in the UK are costing home owners a fortune as the 3-4 kw multiplier drops to 1 below 0degC or so and hearing becomes horrifically expensive. I know a chap who was paying £1,200 a month to hear is home at the worst of this winters cold and the energy price jumps we have here.

"Cold climate" air source pumps have been available for years. Even my cheap MrCool Universal has 100% output down to -5F and it is not even really a "cold climate" heat pump.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#47

Post by zainhoda »

I installed a Mr. Cool DIY mini split in my home for 2 rooms and so far it’s been great. That initial foray was a bit of an experiment. I’d like to just replace my central air now with a ducted heat pump but I haven’t found a good solution that doesn’t cost a ridiculous amount for a professional to install.

I think you have a big problem with selling direct to homeowners. Most HVAC companies will not touch a homeowner-purchased system. So if you’re selling direct, then you’re going to need DIY quick connect line sets like Mr. Cool.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#48

Post by Scoundreller »

jcuenod wrote: post #32

Heat pumps were quite the rage in South Africa. Family members replaced their water heater ("geyser") with one, but I have not been impressed by the ability to heat water for baths and showers. @Chris, I guess that you would say that heat pumps vary in quality and ability. What sort of metrics should I use to assess the quality of the pump that I am buying to avoid buying a dud?

There are even (somewhat weak at recovery) domestic water heaters that run off 120V for those replacing a gas water heater in North America and want to avoid the cost of new wiring/breaker/panels.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#49

Post by s_tec »

dawnerd wrote: post #22
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

Normal wiring is terrible, though, since it only supports turning the equipment on & off. If you have a variable-speed fan and variable-speed pumps, it would be nice for the thermostat to throttle those based on the load, but it can't.

If this company has a solution for variable-speed equipment, the best thing they can do is publish an open standard. Suppose the thermostat talks to the equipment over CAN bus, for instance, using a well-documented protocol. If they go out of business, anybody can hack together a compatible aftermarket thermostat.

A lot of solar equipment is already going this way, with batteries talking to inverters over open CAN bus protocols. As one of the biggest energy loads, the HVAC equipment should get in the game too.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#50

Post by abakker »

tony_cannistra wrote: post #9
neilalexander wrote: post #3

This is interesting but many systems like it fall at the first hurdle in countries like Britain where forced air is not the norm. How are products like this supposed to work in a house that is currently optimised for radiators and combi-boilers and with no existing air ducts?

not OP. My understanding is that situations like these really require installation of the (IMO, ugly) wall units ("mini-splits"). Current air-source heat pumps can't produce hot water at temperatures necessary to drive radiators.

I think they can produce water at temps to support both radiators and radiant floor heat, but they can't produce the capacity/volume needed
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