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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#91

Post by turtlebits »

cmui wrote: post #62
sabareesh wrote: post #38

Typical medium unit at market place is only around 3K compared to your offering at 12k. Why is it so expensive https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pioneer-36-000-BTU-3-Ton-18-SEER...

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

If you want to control air quality, you do this with a separate fresh air intake, not with a ducted furnace. Many older homes have furnaces taking air from sub-optimal spaces such as garages or crawl spaces.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#92

Post by dolmen »

I bought a house with two air heat pumps. I live in France.

One day it stopped working. I tried to find a contractor to repair it. It was hard. Too long to wait in the winter. I immediately bought electric heaters to replace the heat pump as wiring was already in place (the heat pumps were already v2 of the house heating).

I finally got one contractor to come for the heat pump. It happened that he came to my home the only day the last 3 years that temperature was below -5 °C. The issue was apparently a gas leak, but because of the low temperature he couldn't do anything. Despites my calls, he never came back. And I haven't been able to get someone else to fix the thing. The only other contractor I found was only asking 250 EUR to decommission the thing.

So I still have a non working air heat pump in my living room.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#93

Post by mdeeks »

kayson wrote: post #64

Ducted systems are horribly inefficient. Why heat/cool the entire house if you're only in one room? We paid $11k to have a 4-unit 42kbtu mini-split system installed in our condo. We love it. We turn the two units on in the living areas during the day, and just the two units in the bedroom at night. Each unit comes with its own remote and can be programmed individually. No need for an app-enabled/iot multi-zone thermo…

My main problem with mini-splits is that they are just ugly. I can't get past it. Neither can my wife nor others I've talked to. My engineer brain loves the idea, but I just don't want them on my walls nor do I want five different remotes laying around. I suspect thats a problem for many others too.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#94

Post by potatolicious »

turtlebits wrote: post #15

Existing established companies offer centrally ducted heat pumps. You can purchase them direct, and are even sold by your big box home improvement stores. (search for "ducted heat pump) They are generally contractor only as homeowners generally can't DIY the 240v electrical and lineset hookup. What exactly is being improved upon by your startup?

In addition to the software concerns above, I would have severe reservations about the ongoing maintenance of the system.

How would maintenance be handled? There are a large number of contractors in my area that can service the major brands. Would maintenance come from the company itself, or via third party partners? If third parties, what if they prove unreliable? Will there be enough diversity in providers to give me choice?

More importantly, what happens if the startup is acquired or shuts down? This is an expensive kit that, depending on system sizing, costs as much as a car. I need this type of system to work for years, with high availability of parts and labor, and replacement as-required.

Going with a new company in this space seems deeply risky. And yeah, the existing manufacturers don't play super nicely with smarthomes and cloud-based control and whatnot, but it's far from enough of a pain to offset the risk IMO.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#95

Post by mikeyouse »

cosmosisjones wrote: post #85
cmui wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, I should do a better job of communicating the unit sizes. Heat pump capacity varies as a function of outdoor temps. A standard unit is rated at 47F but the sizes I'm showing are at 5F (cold climate conditions). Also for this price you get the air quality module which does HEPA, fresh air intake and humidification and a smart thermostat that's designed to fully optimize this heat pump system.

so what about places like Duluth, MN where it can be -20F ambient, then -40F to -50F with a windchill for several weeks of the year?

It's not designed for those areas. The world is plenty large, they don't need to accommodate every single address in the country to have a viable or useful product.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#96

Post by itake »

cmui wrote: post #45
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

I totally get this concern. Any good piece of critical home infrastructure should be able to operate without the cloud or an internet connection. Following this logic the thermostat + heat pump combination can operate fine without the cloud. You leave some optimized behavior on the table like demand response and weather response, but everything else will work (you'd have to manually enter your TOU rate plan to get th…

I also would appreciate a local-only user experience.

I'd also be concerned about dealing with "cannot find server" alerts popping up every time I use it.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#97

Post by soheil »

dawnerd wrote: post #22
z3ugma wrote: post #12

Chris, one of my biggest worries is that your startup will get acquired or go out of business and then the firmware will leave me with a $14,000 brick. What if I want to keep using the cloud-based thermostat when your servers get shut off or moved to another system, or if something like Google Nest closing down their API happens after you've exited? This is an expensive system with an expected long life, and I'd want…

My thoughts too. Local heating/cooling should not be tied to the cloud period. If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me.

It's hard pass for you because you know what a cloud is. Many don't and you don't know what many know.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#98

Post by heatpumpfan »

obituary_latte wrote: post #78

Does it explain somewhere that I missed how the different size units translate to sq. ft.? I would think that would be a great way to convey which size might work for people, but I might be missing some other factor that doesn't allow for that conversion?

Sizing heat pumps by the sq. ft. is hairy reasoning. Load calculations take into account climate zone, insulation, building materials, orientation, ceiling height, etc. Any recommendation based on 2D area is sketchy. For replacement of existing professionally installed systems, going by the capacity of the installed unit is a better shortcut.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#100

Post by cmui »

sokoloff wrote: post #61
cmui wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the concern around lock in. There is a technical hurdle to optimized thermostat variable speed heat pump interop. You have to turn the temperature error between setpoint and actual temperature into a compressor speed command and also factor in behavior such as defrost, compressor cycling limits, etc. So you have to have a communicating thermostat to fully utilize the efficiency of these variable speed he…

That's totally fair and reasonable. I still will demand that it be able to function in a bang-bang mode using dry contacts, especially from a new entrant to the market, because there's a fair risk that the unit will be in my house longer than your company is in business.

This behavior is how current variable speed heat pumps operate with Ecobee and Nest. You leave efficiency on the table, but I get it provides some future proofing assurance for homeowners. Definitely something we can integrate into the board.
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