Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#251

Post by cmonnow » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 2:33 AM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #198

Razengan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that. Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India (decades ago, it would have been the opposite). Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

> India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area

Hah. Boiler plate blame-the-other-of-your-faults strategy.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus

Ethnic cleansing of Hindus who were mass-exoded out of their homelands through threat of murder and rape via public loudspeakers in the 90s.

Innumerable terrorist attacks perpetrated by Pak ISI instigated and based agents ever since Independence, through Operation Gibraltar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gibraltar

Kashmir was divided in partition in 1947. Pakistan didn't like it. They invaded Kashmir. Indian army held them at current Line of Actual Control. Since then they've been attacking it.

Rape is a blotch to be condemned. It's been a unfortunate side effect of every war ever fought, by both sides. WWII - Germany vs Russia, and Russia vs Germany, for example.

Taken from Human Rights Watch Report - "Rape in Kashmir: A Crime of War" 1993: "In some cases, women have been raped by militant forces as a way of punishing other family members believed to be informers or suspected of opposing the militants. In other cases, members of armed militant groups have abducted women and raped them after threatening or murdering other members of the family."

Terrorism is a huge infestation problem, especially in Kashmir Every country has to deal with it strong-handedly as a duty. Every country since the beginning of time has introduced curfews and curbed liberty for security (TSA screenings hello?) for peace keeping. It's no secret the benefits outweigh the risks for the majority of peaceful population.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#252

Post by pishpash » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 2:43 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #232

hyko wrote: post #148

Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.

>they will do literally anything in return for market access. I don't really see the issue in this case because borders are legal fictions and thus for contested borders between major factions there is no single source of truth, so the most accurate thing is indeed simply to display to Russian users the state of the map as understood by Russians and to other parties the way they see it.

Yes, leave it as a locale customization, like how you write your dates.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#253

Post by jariel » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

suprfsat wrote: post #186

Razengan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

Funny that the 'referendum' was not held until they were under military occupation by the power that forced the 'referendum' and that the results were staunchly in support of said military occupier.

The referendum was boycotted, not subject to external validation, in a land that was already corrupted.

"Invading a country and then holding a referendum at gunpoint whilst avoiding all transparency" I think seriously lacks legitimacy particularly if there was no imperative for the invasion (i.e. Ukrainian leaders were not putting those from Crimea in concentration camps or whatever).

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#254

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 2:51 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #145

I learned early in my web dev career that the India northern map one is a very touchy subject if you intend to target Indians with your web service. You have to be careful not to take some random map off the internet when using them in the design.

Obligatory The Old New Thing link: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030822-00/?p=42...

> The time zone map met a similar fate. The Indian government threatened to ban all Microsoft software from the country because we assigned a disputed region to Pakistan in the time zone map. (Any map that depicts an unfavorable border must bear a government stamp warning the end-user that the borders are incorrect. You can’t stamp software.) We had to make a special version of Windows 95 for them.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#255

Post by dmix » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

bushin wrote: post #250

dmix wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it would be far more defensible if they merely seceded themselves instead of joining the bigger guy next door, with the direct intervention of their army beforehand. I'm a big fan of smaller states and more localized governments which closer reflect the people (see: Canada, Scandinavia, Singapore, Taiwan, HK, South Korea, etc). Few people talk about the US's massive population, economic, size/scale of modern…

Ukrainians didn't think that Russians are evil boogiemen and look what happened to them. Better safe than sorry.

Did you not follow the whole Ukraine civil war where the entire point was the gov was going non-NATO and pro-Russian? The vast majority of Ukraine stood up to Russia at significant costs to themselves.

I agree with a lot of anti-Russian stuff (their overarching geopolitical approach not the hysteria that’s used as a political tool in the west), but that's a very strange counter-example to use...

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#256

Post by Bendingo » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:11 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #236

4bpp wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is…

It's not that simple. If you go to Crimea and commit a crime without getting arrested, and then travel to Ukraine and they find out, they will arrest you and try you under Ukrainian law. And if you try to cross the border from Crimea to Ukraine, the Ukrainian side will not ask you if you "want to enter Ukraine". They consider Crimea to be Ukrainian, so they'll treat you as somebody who is already on Ukrainian territo…

> you have committed an illegal entry at the moment you entered Crimea without going through a legitimate border checkpoint - so they'll just arrest you for that

This is true.

A few years ago I flew from Moscow to Simferopol (Crimea) and was advised that to not visit Ukraine in the future, for risk of arrest at the border. I'm not sure how Ukrainian border authorities would know of my visit to Crimea, since there is no record of it in my Australian passport, but I would not want to take the risk.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#257

Post by FpUser » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:12 AM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #142

FpUser wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets. I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

The only real answer to this question is probably Belarus.

In theory they can. In practice I think should any military aggression happen the rest of the world will quite deservedly cut off any ties with Russia while offering to Belorussia all military assistance possible short of direct participation.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#258

Post by Surio » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:19 AM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #198

Razengan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that. Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India (decades ago, it would have been the opposite). Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

> India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area,

Not only is that an oversimplification, but it is also plain wrong at so many levels (but it is the lie that has been spun for a long time now). Successive govts. helmed by a certain sell out (Indian) political party had systematically worked against Indian interests by not only not challenging this false narrative, but actually tacitly endorsing it, until recently. Embarrasingly, people like Tulsi Gabbard have been more sympathetic and supporting of the facts behind the incidents, and calling out the false media spin. But this support has led to India waking up and becoming more assertive in calling out lies and facing more facts on the table for all to see.. See this latest video from Tom Lantos meeting:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Vz_0B4eo4

Edit: should read sell out Indian political party

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#259

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:21 AM UTC

Surio wrote: post #258

input_sh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that. Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India (decades ago, it would have been the opposite). Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

> India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, Not only is that an oversimplification, but it is also plain wrong at so many levels (but it is the lie that has been spun for a long time now). Successive govts. helmed by a certain sell out (Indian) political party had systematically worked against Indian interests by not only not challenging this false narrative, but actually tacitly endorsing it, until r…

[deleted]

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#260

Post by pnako » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #213

dmix wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was re…

There was "potentially legitimate local support" from Germans living in Danzig and the Czech Sudetenland, too. The overriding principle of international law is that you shouldn't use your army to invade neighboring countries.

Right. You should only invade far away countries in the middle east.

International law used to be European law, now it's American law. And perhaps it will be Chinese law, in 50 years.