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Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

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Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#251

Post by JustSomeNobody »

akuji1993 wrote: post #129
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

It won't. Outside of TechCrunch, HN and NYT, nobody's talking about it. My wife and I are both software engineers, and nobody is talking about it at our respective work places. We were socializing with a large group this weekend, and while FB was brought up, it was only in the context of following a group. Nobody mentioned the "scandal" going on. Not a single person.

Ok, fine, this is anecdata. But we're talking heavily tech leaning people and we didn't hear anything from them.

Nothing is going to come of this.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#252

Post by snowwolf »

darawk wrote: post #125
malka wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dark pattern like this one needs to be hammered down by law. We should consider the most prominent button as "default" and such a form as an "opt-out".

Is this really a dark pattern? The text is right there. It's not convoluted legalese, it's extremely straightforward. If people aren't willing to read that, how exactly are you supposed to get anyone's consent for anything?

Yes - Call and Text history are not required to make this feature work - only your contact list (which is all iOS sends). They bundled this extra invasive data collection into the consent request. And we are used to apps requesting access to contacts to find people you know on the platform, so syncing your contact list is expected for this feature. What's not so expected is also sharing your call and text history, which is conveniently mentioned in a low contrast text blurb. That's the dark pattern.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#253

Post by Retric »

randomsearch wrote: post #229
ams6110 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google+ were launching today, they might have a better chance. More people are interested in Facebook alternatives. At the time, Facebook had already supplanted MySpace and Google+ didn't offer anything attractive enough to switch again.

No point swapping Facebook for another advertising-driven social network in the same vein. If a company like Apple were running it and people were paying for it, that would be a different matter. Google have contributed to privacy issues, e.g. with poor permission management.

Running a social website should be cheap enough that they don't need to be invasive. The company would be leaving money on the table as it where, but winning is worth enough that it's a good trade-off.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#254

Post by pbhjpbhj »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #218
shanghaiaway wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company's destiny is decided by revenue and profit. Facebook will be fine as long as the advertising money keeps coming in. Will it? I don't see why not. Companies don't care about user privacy.

Companies do care about being associated with negative PR, though. Plus, how effective is the advertising in motivating purchase versus sowing seeds of discontent? It has utility, yes, but what the majority seem to consider, "not good".

Pure Capitalists, whose values most of the larger companies are run under, care only about the profit. Sometimes negative PR brings additional profit, there is no remorse in such cases.

Facebook's controlling minds don't care about you, they care about if there's reduction in profit [or profit generating ability].

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#255

Post by mfringel »

austincheney wrote: post #182
mk89 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the statement > People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience is only partially correct. So far I have been able to distinguish these kinds of people: - people unaware - people aware that try their best to keep privacy (if they are on facebook, they limit their usage - more or less like "lurkers") - people aware and still posting stuff on FB/giving some permissions and they…

> However, what about last week's scandal with Cambridge Analytica? This isn't news to me. Any data submitted by a user to Facebook is forever surrendered to Facebook who then owns it. Facebook can do whatever they want with their property. The only surprise there is that users so happily agree to this madness only to be shocked by the result. What did they think was going to happen? Still, I don't blame Facebook for…

"I'm shocked you're shocked" is just fancy-grade despair.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#256

Post by rweba »

I have been thinking about it and I think the issue with Facebook in particular is how AGGRESSIVE and CARELESS they have always been in violating privacy. Just like Uber their philosophy is "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission". And of course they have an official slogan of "Move fast and break things".

So all these different controversies are not just a coincidence but are very much baked into their organizational culture. They are obsessed with winning at all costs and clearly see privacy issues as just inconveniences to achieving their goals.

I am not sure if it is possible to imagine a social network that truly respected privacy at its core, that didn't try to get away with as much as it could, that put its users interests ahead of increasing Daily Active Users.

But if Facebook actually operated like that, I suspect there would be a lot less concern.

I don't know if that is even possible though.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#257

Post by kolbe »

akuji1993 wrote: post #129
ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

Intelligent and wealthy people care. That's the group of people who made facebook what is it today, and everyone else will eventually leave if the people they admire have left.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#258

Post by pbhjpbhj »

ams6110 wrote: post #195
dm319 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the business sector needs to have a look at the way consent is done in the medical field, where huge terms and conditions with nasty stuff hidden away isn't ok. The concept in medicine is that consent for treatment is done in a simple way that encompasses things that are commonly an issue (but often a minor inconvenience), things that are rarely an issue but are disastrous, and things that might specifically…

I'm not sure what "understandable way" you are talking about -- as a patient anyway. Every time I've been or taken a family member to see a doctor, I have to sign a multi-page consent agreement (which I read about as closely as the Terms of Use on a website). What's the point? Am I not going to sign it? No, I'm there because I need care. I don't read it, and neither does anyone else I've asked about it.

Does the doctor's admin indicate the general gist of the document and have you initial any important sections? This seems to be common now in the UK - I think because having people sign a document isn't valid unless they are aware of the content in at least general terms (I'm pretty sure this was tested in court).

Assumed consent of an ignorant party is effectively no consent at all.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#259

Post by amatera »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #226
a012 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, abandoned Instagram, Whatsapp, and FB for a year and I don't miss a thing. Keep in touch with real friends instead of checking the virtual ones.

If you have international family/friends, WhatsApp is the most ubiquitous and easy to use option I’ve come across.

And why alternatives like Telegramm are not an easy to use option?

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#260

Post by czechdeveloper »

soziawa wrote: post #244
randomsearch wrote: post #237

If you haven't already installed Signal on your phone, please go and do so. To have alternatives to Facebook/W/I we need to build up network effects. Pretty easy to convince tech people to do this, and it would be a good start for getting Signal in as a replacement.

While Signal is nice it's rather worrying that it's free. I'd rather use a paid alternative like Threema.

Good luck convincing your friends to buy any sort of IM application. It's already difficult now to convince them "just for privacy".
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