Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#151

Post by austincheney » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

akuji1993 wrote: post #129

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

It is an easily testable premise. Ask anybody if they have deleted their Facebook account. If they are hesitating they probably won't.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#152

Post by helloindia » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #147

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

There is nothing to suggest dark UX patterns were at play here. People simply gave Facebook access to everything because it was fashionable and convenient. People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience. It has been common knowledge for years that Facebook will directly use that data against you and still people, completely aware of this, didn't care. The only thing that made people…

I'm a frequent Facebook user, and I'm connected to most of my relatives and close friends on Facebook. I have absolutely no need to share my phone contact list(where I have numbers of colleagues and people who I wouldn't call friends) to Facebook.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#153

Post by helloindia » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #112

anilakar wrote: post #83

I suspected this many years ago when familiar faces from our customers started to appear in the friend suggestion box. I've never installed the FB app on my phone, but our less privacy oriented customers probably have. What pisses me off is that while I can choose what information I share, I haven't given other people nor Facebook permission to read phone call logs that involve me.

The worst part is that they probably suggested these various customers to befriend themselves, just because they all had you in their contact list. Scenarios like these have been reported with unrelated patients of medical professionals.

Once I accidentally linked my Facebook account with Instagram. I was bombarded with friend suggestions of people I follow on Instagram. I follow strangers in Instagram when I like their photo feed. Facebook is only for family, close friends and relatives. I linked Instagram with dummy Facebook account to flush my Instagram profile of Facebook friend list and vice versa. There was no other way to delink two accounts.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#154

Post by dm319 » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:20 AM UTC

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I think the business sector needs to have a look at the way consent is done in the medical field, where huge terms and conditions with nasty stuff hidden away isn't ok.

The concept in medicine is that consent for treatment is done in a simple way that encompasses things that are commonly an issue (but often a minor inconvenience), things that are rarely an issue but are disastrous, and things that might specifically be an extra-big issue for the patient (i.e. damage to fingertip sensation for a typist, or something like that).

This gives the responsibility of getting the salient issues communicated to the person requesting consent - forcing it to be phrased in an understandable way. I see some companies are doing a summary of the terms and conditions (seen it with Virgin and Google), which is welcome, as long as they are including what is common and important in that summary and not hiding things in the T&Cs.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#155

Post by adventured » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

mk89 wrote: post #149

akuji1993 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would…

Wait until GDPR is here, then we might discuss about it. I really wonder how they will pass all those "privacy checks".

It doesn't matter. They have the money, people and time to throw at compliance.

GDPR won't dent Facebook in the least. They'll bend where they have to, and no further. They'll pay occasional fines and that won't matter either.

If you take it to an extreme and the only thing they can do is show non-personalized advertising and do zero tracking, they'll still print billions in profit in the EU market. That's what owning most of Europe does for you. Their gross profit margin globally is just under ~87%. Cut that in half and they still have a very profitable business with margins comparable to Google.

Facebook could run entirely untargeted advertising on their platform globally and still yield enviable profit margins. Their platform is extremely tightly run on costs compared to most tech giants.

People talking about doom on this, aren't discussing facts or using logic, they're projecting a revenge fantasy out of emotion. It's driven by a desire to punish Facebook.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#156

Post by netsharc » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #147

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

There is nothing to suggest dark UX patterns were at play here. People simply gave Facebook access to everything because it was fashionable and convenient. People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience. It has been common knowledge for years that Facebook will directly use that data against you and still people, completely aware of this, didn't care. The only thing that made people…

It's probably like a spouse having racy pictures of you, and now you've found out they've done something bad with racy pictures of previous spouses. You gave them the pictures, and now you feel uncomfortable that you did. Legally you gave them permission, but how you feel about it has changed.

Also, Zuck arguing he has your consent is like the spouse saying "You mumbled 'okay' when I badgered to take pictures of you naked! That's permission!". Also Zuck saying it's secure is like your spouse having those pictures in a Windows share in his frat house but telling his frat bros "tell me that you agree not to look at those pictures." (More like your spouse saying the small print says he's allowed to distribute those pics to other people, but only if they promise not to misuse them...).

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#157

Post by helloindia » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

mercer wrote: post #108

orbifold wrote: post #57

Ok, well this is just great. So Facebook has all my contacts from their aquisition of WhatsApp and even though I've never used any of their Apps or had an account with them, I'm pretty sure everyone I typically communicate with has the App and did not opt-out of this collection. So they get data on me for free that the police would need a court order to get. This kind of data retention has been highly controversial i…

My knowledge in this area is limited, so maybe others can pipe in, but assuming massive amounts of data on millions (or most?) Facebook users is out in the wild, which cannot be 'put back': 1. how well can this be actually used currently to create a proper psychosocial(?) profile of an individual? What's the current state of the art? Any suggestions for books or papers to read on the matter? 2. do we have any idea of…

I use Whatsapp only for communication with office colleagues. I had my Instagram linked to my mobile number(2fA). Soon my office colleagues' profiles started showing up on my Instagram follow suggestions. This happened despite the fact that I have not uploaded my contact list to Instagram. I had to block all my colleagues on insta, and then remove my number from Instagram profile.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#158

Post by RyanZAG » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:30 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #125

malka wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dark pattern like this one needs to be hammered down by law. We should consider the most prominent button as "default" and such a form as an "opt-out".

Is this really a dark pattern? The text is right there. It's not convoluted legalese, it's extremely straightforward. If people aren't willing to read that, how exactly are you supposed to get anyone's consent for anything?

Consent can be tricky when you create a path of higher and lower resistance. This is especially so for people who try to avoid conflict (teenage girls here especially). They may give consent simply because it's what is expected of them, and rather than what they actually want. UI design for such consent forms has to be carefully considered so as to make it 'socially acceptable' to decline.

That specific popup is a clear example of how to maximize acceptance in a big portion of the population. I can almost guarantee you that popup design was chosen based off A-B testing, and had the highest rate of acceptance among designs.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#159

Post by mk89 » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:35 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #147

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

There is nothing to suggest dark UX patterns were at play here. People simply gave Facebook access to everything because it was fashionable and convenient. People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience. It has been common knowledge for years that Facebook will directly use that data against you and still people, completely aware of this, didn't care. The only thing that made people…

I think the statement

> People simply do not care about their privacy if its in conflict with convenience

is only partially correct.

So far I have been able to distinguish these kinds of people:

- people unaware

- people aware that try their best to keep privacy (if they are on facebook, they limit their usage - more or less like "lurkers")

- people aware and still posting stuff on FB/giving some permissions and they still do "something" (a bit more than lurkers above)

- people aware but "I don't have anything to hide", yet still unaware of the full potential of lack of privacy and they post whatever they want

- people aware and educated about privacy and "I don't have anything to hide" (yes, they do exist) and they still post whatever they want

> I simply cannot find the words to blame Facebook for this.

I have to disagree here as well. There are certain things which I agree with you on, e.g., this feature was enabled by default, because users want to have more convenience. Indeed! However, what about last week's scandal with Cambridge Analytica? And what else aren't we aware of? I am trying my best not to connect these two facts, yet, it seems there is a pattern when it's about user data => who cares, they don't know what they want.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#160

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 9:35 AM UTC

zodiac wrote: post #150

dredmorbius wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ToS and other conditions attached to various services and relationships are literally far too long and complex for anyone to read, understand, and recall in full detail. This point has been the subject of numerour articles and documentaries. Hoback states that if one was to read everything in these user/service agreements, it would take one full month, that’s 180 hours every year” and that according to The Wall S…

I totally agree! But first of all, the prompt shown in the article's screenshot was not hidden in a long ToS. Second of all, I agree that we should work towards solving the problem that overly-long ToSs represent. What I do not agree with is the assertion that, in the presence of an overlong-ToS, we allow people to click-through, then get outraged at the company for doing something they were allowed to do by the ToS.…

Tools which become ubiquitous or prerequisites for other services are not discretionary.

Facebook is the Internet for many people, is required for authenticating by numerous services, and is how numerous groups and communities organise.

As such, its terms and services as those of numerous other services, should be defined in a standard set of obligations, rights, and responsibilities, by law.