Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 370 posts

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#121

Post by cyphar »

reacharavindh wrote: post #61

So, this happened and we have confirmed about the dark patterns whether consented or not. What are good alternatives in this "Network effect" age? Facebook - I hardly use anymore. It exists undeleted because it serves as a kind of Social ID. I don't have the App installed anywhere, neither do I access it from my regular browser. The thing I'm struggling to get alternative for is WhatsApp. How could I talk to all my c…

Matrix (Riot is the app you would install) is federated, free software, isn't tied to your phone number, and has optional OTR-like encryption (it's based on Signal's encryption but has much more solid group chat encryption). Also messages don't go through a single server (only the home-servers that are involved in the communication), so the OTR-defeating problem that Signal has (that you can defeat the repudiation of the crypto by watching the server logs) is not nearly as much of an issue. It also has VOIP and video calls, that are also encrypted.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#122

Post by fimdomeio »

I feel in a way very disturbed by all these news coming out. Not by their contents, I don't feel there's nothing new here, but by the way way they are written. Since when is it not known in the tech world that facebook's business model exists around the idea of making a piece of legal spyware. At least where I live it's unpolite to give someone's contacts to anyone without asking the person first. I don't see why is it any different with facebook. Other thing I don't understand is why aren't the users being paid for having facebook accounts. If you look at it from a certain perspective, every like and every photo is working for facebook, it does not feel like work but it is, since you're creating the products that are being sold.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#123

Post by darawk »

fimdomeio wrote: post #122

I feel in a way very disturbed by all these news coming out. Not by their contents, I don't feel there's nothing new here, but by the way way they are written. Since when is it not known in the tech world that facebook's business model exists around the idea of making a piece of legal spyware. At least where I live it's unpolite to give someone's contacts to anyone without asking the person first. I don't see why is…

You don't need to pay willing volunteers.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#124

Post by yAnonymous »

rojcyk wrote: post #99
reacharavindh wrote: post #61

So, this happened and we have confirmed about the dark patterns whether consented or not. What are good alternatives in this "Network effect" age? Facebook - I hardly use anymore. It exists undeleted because it serves as a kind of Social ID. I don't have the App installed anywhere, neither do I access it from my regular browser. The thing I'm struggling to get alternative for is WhatsApp. How could I talk to all my c…

I highly recommend Telegram. The issue with having to install yet another app is still present, but me and my close friends have made the switch and haven't looked back since.

Telegram, while good software, is the worst of the messengers, because they're based in Russia.

The Russian government recently asked for the encryption keys and they have like one more week to comply.

CORRECTION: They're currently in Dubai and are relocating as needed.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#125

Post by darawk »

malka wrote: post #37
Gaelan wrote: post #5

The Facebook blog post includes this screenshot [0]. That's definitely an opt-in, although I could imagine a non-technical person clicking through it without reading the grey text. Better than nothing. [0]: https://fbnewsroomus.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/opt-in_scre...

dark pattern like this one needs to be hammered down by law. We should consider the most prominent button as "default" and such a form as an "opt-out".

Is this really a dark pattern? The text is right there. It's not convoluted legalese, it's extremely straightforward. If people aren't willing to read that, how exactly are you supposed to get anyone's consent for anything?

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#126

Post by orbifold »

cyphar wrote: post #119
orbifold wrote: post #57

Ok, well this is just great. So Facebook has all my contacts from their aquisition of WhatsApp and even though I've never used any of their Apps or had an account with them, I'm pretty sure everyone I typically communicate with has the App and did not opt-out of this collection. So they get data on me for free that the police would need a court order to get. This kind of data retention has been highly controversial i…

> I should have a way of asking them to delete all data they have on me including meta data from sms/phone calls they might have collected. With GDPR they will have a legal requirement that "delete your account" deletes all of your data if you're in the EU. Currently they don't delete conversations with other people, and don't delete any ML data which was based on your data, but hopefully that will be ruled illegal u…

I think the problem is that most of the data they have on me is implicit in the data they have stored about other people. They definitely have my phone number, but I'm not sure they store the result of a computation they could easily do on demand with what effectively would be a join statement (no ML required), namely reconstructing my call history with everyone that has the facebook app installed. Again I'm not sure if the GDPR has any provisions against that, because it affects two parties one that has consented to the storage and another that hasn't. Also it is not clear to me how an average citizen would be aware of the fact that even if they only have your phone number stored they are most likely able to reconstruct most of your call history as well.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#127

Post by jbkrule »

kenning wrote: post #111
malka wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dark pattern like this one needs to be hammered down by law. We should consider the most prominent button as "default" and such a form as an "opt-out".

I hate to play devil's advocate against something i agree with here, but there's a lot of subjective ideas here, most obviously determining which button is "most prominent."

In a world where we have already been preconditioned to certain design patterns, the blue button is clearly the more prominent and will subconsciously be considered the "default" option.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#128

Post by ConcernedCoder »

Gaelan wrote: post #5

The Facebook blog post includes this screenshot [0]. That's definitely an opt-in, although I could imagine a non-technical person clicking through it without reading the grey text. Better than nothing. [0]: https://fbnewsroomus.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/opt-in_scre...

I'd like to formally welcome everyone to the world of a/b test-driven development!

Nice easy-to-read high-contrast giant-font headings that seem legit: "Text anyone in your phone!" - Yay! that's exactly what I want!!!

Tricky hard-to-read low-contrast micro-font fine print that looks like way to much trouble to try to read, detailing what ACTUALLY happens when you're tricked into clicking the:

One brightly-colored-only-thing-that-looks-remotely-like-I-should-click-it call to action.

Add in the cute emoji looking user who obviously LOVES giving up his privacy, and you've got a winner!

Wow project manager, would you look at these great test results!!! everyone wants to give us their private info!!! what idiots!

-every front-end engineer ever

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#129

Post by akuji1993 »

ponderatul wrote: post #66

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I'm still completely convinced that this whole scandal will not damage Facebook a bit, in the long term. Yeah, the stock is going to be a bit lower for some weeks, some people will leave, but the largest part of the Facebook users has not even realised the scandal in full scale. They're not going anywhere, they're going to continue as is, since there really is not alternative for Facebook right now and tbh they would just probably do the same thing to their users so why bother. The only solution for people concerned with this is giving up on social media all together. The majority however won't care at all and still continue using Facebook.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#130

Post by hobofan »

orbifold wrote: post #126
cyphar wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I should have a way of asking them to delete all data they have on me including meta data from sms/phone calls they might have collected. With GDPR they will have a legal requirement that "delete your account" deletes all of your data if you're in the EU. Currently they don't delete conversations with other people, and don't delete any ML data which was based on your data, but hopefully that will be ruled illegal u…

I think the problem is that most of the data they have on me is implicit in the data they have stored about other people. They definitely have my phone number, but I'm not sure they store the result of a computation they could easily do on demand with what effectively would be a join statement (no ML required), namely reconstructing my call history with everyone that has the facebook app installed. Again I'm not sure…

> namely reconstructing my call history with everyone that has the facebook app installed

IANAL, but I think that would be okay, as long as they don't associate any/strip all personal identifiable information from your phone number, and don't store the phone number in plaintext.

Post reply on HN