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Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

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Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female…

You unwittingly fall into an enclosure filled with angry chimpanzees. A crowd gathers, and shouts "Leave the enclosure, climb out, there's a ladder!" Another crowd gathers and shouts at the first crowd "Shut up. Stop blaming the victim!" Which crowd has your best interests at heart?

Tech companies are staffed with humans, not angry chimpanzees; this analogy is stupid.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our coworkers suffer, but so do the people I know who work in completely different industries. I have no idea how the tech industry compares to other industries in terms of treatment of women. What I can say for certain is that we do not have the amazing complaints of cocaine fueled parties filled with hookers that seem to regularly emerge from the world of finance.

> cocaine fueled parties filled with hookers that seem to regularly emerge from the world of finance. Your finance industry stereotypes are about 30 years out of date. Wall Street is way less flagrant about their excess these days. Meanwhile, in tech... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titstare

>Your finance industry stereotypes are about 30 years out of date.

Not as blatant as the "golden age", perhaps, but it seems "hookers and blow" still figure in the lifestyle. A former hedge fund trader published a book a couple years ago detailing how his company (within the last decade) plied clients with prostitutes and a wide array of illegal narcotics:

http://nypost.com/2013/05/30/former-hedge-fund-titan-bares-a...

Then there's the BofA banker who, last December, was found to have gone off the rails, from continual partying, and killed two sex workers:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-02/bofa-banker-arreste...

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read that whole section. 261.7 refers to public officials abusing their authority, and duress is defined in that context.

Incorrect. The paragraph I quoted is 261(b). The paragraph you are talking about is 261(a)(7), part of 261(a). Note that 261(a)(7) never even uses the word "duress". Furthermore, 261(b) says "this section". The "section" is 261, not 261(a)(7). Note also that 261(a)(7) calls itself "this paragraph", not "this section". 261.7 is a completely different section concerning the evidentiary value of birth control methods: h…

You are right, I'm misunderstanding the scoping rules for law. I was interpreting it as (261 ... (7 ... (b ...))) rather than (261 (a ... (7 ...) ) (b ...) ).

I guess the question hinges on what is intended by the word "retribution".

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#244
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

> 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss. As a man, I may have a hard time understanding any nuances here, but I think being known as "the woman who called the police on her boss" would be highly advantageous in creating a filter where the only male bosses who would want to hire you are…

The future hiring manager does not know what really happened, and any details is effectively hearsay to them.

The person becomes a very risky hire personally to the new boss then, because if the police were called once, they might be called again, even if you did nothing wrong. And your career and future income might be ruined. It's much safer to just hire the other person with no history of police involvement.

The general principle can be applied to other crimes too.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#245

I don't want to openly doubt rape, but jesus, several times over several months? Call the police, or at least avoid a situation if possible. Clearly she is willing to talk about it, so where's the police report? Also, every time I read one of these articles I cringe. There's a big movement to "include women in tech", but it's interesting to note that (in my experience) there is a large group (bordering on majority) o…

See? This is what I mean. I'm sure the parent poster is generally a nice person, but while they make what I'm certain they believe is an innocent comment, they claim a) women are less suited for technical careers (which has no basis in fact and is sexist as hell), b) suggest that women should "not complain" because by complaining they only cause men to reject them even more, but then c) on the flip-side say that if a…

You completely twisted his words.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#246
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone using a colloquial term for anything sexual without consent, obviously. Sex without consent is generally called rape; most people don't have any clue about the exact legal definitions But most people don't subscribe to your consent based definition of rape. I think the majority of people would lean towards the force based definition of rape. You personally might think that rape should be defined as sex wit…

> But most people don't subscribe to your consent based definition of rape. I think the majority of people would lean towards the force based definition of rape. You are wrong; see for example Wikipedia, which represents a broad agreement of many editors and includes both coercion and abuse of authority as types of rape. Edit to reply to swatow since I've hit the reply limit: that's a good article and I hope you read…

I don't see how the opinion of Wikipedia editors is a good source for how rape is defined colloquially.

Here is an article that discusses the controversy over force based vs consent based definitions of rape.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117630/jed-rubenfeld-rape...

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#247
post #90
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss. Would the police do anything about the scenario you outlined above? Wouldn't sexual harassment where the boss trades sexual favors for promotions/job security be considered a civil matter in most places?

Fun fact: bringing a lawsuit against your company is not good for feeling like you're going to be getting hired places later: especially since I believe (not completely sure) you can only sue for punitive damages.

Also consider being publicly dragged through the mud, having your sexual history become a matter of public discussion, and having to defend yourself against a far more powerful member of the community, who may be eating dinner with the judge that night. You might find that you become the villain in the eyes of your community.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#248
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

So your own coworkers suffer, and your response is, I find it doubtful that we terrorize women more than others? So what if that's true? Is the important story here how we've become victims of the media? Also, software is one of the very few (only?) industries where women participation has been dropping steadily[1], so I find it likely that the situation in tech is worse than in finance (they've had years to learn).…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#249
It seems to me that a lot of women are left with pretty much two options in a lot of these situations: the lethal option, and submission. Calling the police or going to HR is the "lethal" option, meaning that, in all likelihood, there is going to be a big problem, and somebody is going to suffer.

I think the following scenario should be easy to understand (if not familiar) for most people: A person is walking down the street, when somebody approaches them and tells them to surrender their wallet. What would most people recommend in this situation? "Let them take your wallet, there's no point in risking your life"? What if the person being mugged revealed they were carrying a weapon capable of deadly force? Would you recommend that they use it to defend themselves?

Would your recommendation change if the threatening person in question had a position of default trust (e.g. a police officer), or a member of a powerful gang?

Now imagine a person in a scenario where, instead of just walking down the street, they are approached _in their office_ by somebody they trust, and instead of being asked for their wallet, they are asked for something incredibly more traumatic and unrecoverable, under the threat of complete financial destruction or possibly even physical harm.

I would never want to find out which way I would decide, in any of these situations. It's abominable that anyone should have to make that kind of choice, and it's worse still that it seems to be happening under our very noses and nobody can see it.

I think this article sets forth some very powerful, actionable ideas that are not only gender-neutral, but generally applicable in many other industries for many other classes of people who need options.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#250
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite different. She had an option to decline. Maybe it would've a very hard choice indeed, both socially and career-wise but she did have that choice. It might be convenient in some cases to broaden the definition of rape gradually but the bottom line is you can not be raped if you are simply able to walk away. It might be harassment. It might be blackmailing. It might be a lot of nasty, disgusting, and even…

If you threaten to punch someone in the face if she doesn't sleep with you, that's clearly rape. If you threaten to fire someone if she doesn't sleep with you, some people wouldn't call that rape (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? The belief that physical coercion is worse than economic coercio…

But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad?

This is strangely reminiscent of a lot of arguments that men's rights activists make. Namely, they'd rather be raped than lose 50% of their income to paternity fraud. They even attach a prefix to the word rape - "divorce rape" instead of "white collar rape".

I take it you also support their arguments, right? Or if you don't, you've got some clear principle separating the two cases?

(Note: I'm taking no position on any of this, just pointing out a possible inconsistency.)

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