Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#221

Post by drostie » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 3:59 AM UTC

yason wrote: post #173

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

That's quite different. She had an option to decline. Maybe it would've a very hard choice indeed, both socially and career-wise but she did have that choice. It might be convenient in some cases to broaden the definition of rape gradually but the bottom line is you can not be raped if you are simply able to walk away. It might be harassment. It might be blackmailing. It might be a lot of nasty, disgusting, and even…

There's a much simpler definition of "rape" as "being coerced into having sex that you do not want to have." It, of course, is not the present legal definition of rape. But it's something that's easy to talk about and to use in conversation.

In other words, the point is that sex is put into a separate sphere of activity from other ordinarily-pleasant experiences and given a dignity which is not special to those other activities. (This is not particularly tendentious: most cultures have, say, hygeine laws which are important to follow but it's hard to identify the exact reason "why". Egg on your face is "dirty". Will it hurt anyone or cause you to contract or spread disease etc.? No. But it's still dirty and it's still important in our culture.)

The gap from sexual harassment to rape is therefore not, say, violence, but the escalation from uncouth groping to uncouth sex. The fact that there is a narrative where she looks out upon her options and says, "okay, I will fearfully give this man a blowjob rather than give him the middle finger and prepare for joblessness" -- one where she somehow rationally "chooses" sex as her "best option" -- is moot if sex is fundamentally privileged by the society you're a part of. The problem is that the "rape" has essentially happened (it's happened as a conspiracy, say), by the time that that "choice" has to be made.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#222

Post by jobposter1234 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 3:59 AM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #165

indrx wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not "rape" unless the coercion involved threats of violence, cf http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&gr... It is sexual harassment though.

only in some legal jurisdictions with outdated notions of "rape" And even in those, rape is often the proper word, it's just not used in the legal text for historical reasons.

What is your definition of rape?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#223

Post by ForHackernews » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 3:59 AM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #168

geofft wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's a particular reason to believe this is significantly worse in tech than it is elsewhere (although if this I'm wrong, I'd definitely appreciate being corrected on this). But there are a few things I'd say: - Tech has this particular weird cultural self-view that we all see ourselves and each other as middle-school nerds emerging victorious, as people who got past the bullies and the ills of "norm…

I find it doubtful that tech is worse than, for example, the finance industry (with its rich history of decadence and debauchery). I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

> I also find it "interesting" that the tech industry seems to have replaced the finance industry (whose shenanigans put the West into recession) as the focus of media critique.

Guess who's the next group of rich people thinking their bubble's never going to pop?

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#224

Post by ForHackernews » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:04 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #199

pron wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your own coworkers suffer, and your response is, I find it doubtful that we terrorize women more than others? So what if that's true? Is the important story here how we've become victims of the media? Also, software is one of the very few (only?) industries where women participation has been dropping steadily[1], so I find it likely that the situation in tech is worse than in finance (they've had years to learn).…

Our coworkers suffer, but so do the people I know who work in completely different industries. I have no idea how the tech industry compares to other industries in terms of treatment of women. What I can say for certain is that we do not have the amazing complaints of cocaine fueled parties filled with hookers that seem to regularly emerge from the world of finance.

> cocaine fueled parties filled with hookers that seem to regularly emerge from the world of finance.

Your finance industry stereotypes are about 30 years out of date. Wall Street is way less flagrant about their excess these days.

Meanwhile, in tech... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titstare

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#225

Post by jobposter1234 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:04 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

Very serious issue, but your first point is silly. While the absence of coercion does not clear the bar for "not rape", it does not follow that being unable to declare "not rape" equals "rape".

In your world view, it it inappropriate for any sexual intercourse to exist between a person of power and a subordinate who might gain from a relationship? Because the conclusion of #2 seems to be that sexual relationships can only exist between social / workplace equals, otherwise it will be M.A.D.

Rape is very serious. Sexual relationships are very complex. Every situation is different, and there is nobody (famous) on this forum that knows all the facts and should comment on this case, and should especially not try to draw conclusions from it.

This is more of a comment about the thread in general than your response, except where I specifically asked questions.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#226

Post by code_reuse » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:04 AM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #185

unepipe wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forced oral sex is considered rape. This isn't feminist redefinition. You think if a gun is to your head and you give a blowjob that is sexual harassment? Think about someone who has a family and needs their income, and what this kind of situation puts them in.

For the sake of argument, let me play the devil's advocate here and do a bit of armchair philosophy. Let's say I have a family, many mouths to feed, maybe it's the last job I could possibly get in my small town in the middle of nowhere. I hate the job, it sucks the life out of me, I don't want to do it, but I'm forced to "against my will" every single day because otherwise my family will starve to death. If I lose it…

I suppose it depends on what the word 'rape' is to you. To me it is a word in the English vernacular which has a certain meaning to everyday people. To me preserving that lexical meaning is super important because it fosters a common understanding between people which is the primary thing.

The word or concept has nothing to do with jurisprudence or the idea of jurisdiction which is what many people here keep referencing. A word still holds it's proper definition in the minds of men and it is prudent to defend them as such irregardless of what goes on within government.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#227

Post by abalone » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:06 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #212

yason wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite different. She had an option to decline. Maybe it would've a very hard choice indeed, both socially and career-wise but she did have that choice. It might be convenient in some cases to broaden the definition of rape gradually but the bottom line is you can not be raped if you are simply able to walk away. It might be harassment. It might be blackmailing. It might be a lot of nasty, disgusting, and even…

If you threaten to punch someone in the face if she doesn't sleep with you, that's clearly rape. If you threaten to fire someone if she doesn't sleep with you, some people wouldn't call that rape (and the law wouldn't either). But I'd rather get punched in the face then lose a job I worked really hard to get. So why do we consider the latter not as bad? The belief that physical coercion is worse than economic coercio…

This is why the term "slippery slope" is so common in the legal profession. If financial consequences = coercion = rape then there is a huge range of situations that can now be cast under the cloud of rape, such as relationships where one person is financially dependent on the other.

Fortunately some states have laws that specifically define and criminalize sexual extortion. It's distinct from rape / sexual assault but it is a felony.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#228

Post by fenomas » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

#2 of the recommendations at the end (correction without punishment when appropriate) is an excellent point that I've rarely/never seen discussed in articles like this. It reminds me of a past job where a friend of mine silently put up with (relatively low-level) harassment because she didn't want to get the guy pilloried.

I think one confounding issue with sexism in tech is that companies find it so uncomfortable to talk about that they shy away from real analysis - adopting whatever policy comes to mind without seriously examining what the root cause was and whether they're addressing it.

The only solution is cogent discussion, like this excellent article.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#229

Post by byEngineer » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:09 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

Any evidence that she didn't do it on purpose to destroy the guy after he didn't want to leave wife for her?

Remember, male weapon might be brute force, but it's not like Mother Nature didn't empower women in millions of years of the evolution process. Females are masters of social manipulation. And 99% of the time this isn't a bad thing. The same way that 99% of the time this isn't bad that male is physically strong. The problem is 1% of those who abuse.

In other words ask your lawyer friend what are the guy chances of she started giving her boss sexual favors then demanded he divorces wife. And as this doesn't happen, she starts her big time drama about being raped. No evidence what so ever. Just her word that she was raped by giving a head CS his that she wanted it.

Poor weak sex, hahaha... And you white knights clueless about social manipulators aka women. Grow up!

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#230

Post by CodeWriter23 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 4:09 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

> 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police on her boss.

As a man, I may have a hard time understanding any nuances here, but I think being known as "the woman who called the police on her boss" would be highly advantageous in creating a filter where the only male bosses who would want to hire you are the ones who know they aren't going to rape you. Or try to fuck you "consensually" (air quotes) either.