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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#241

Post by j16sdiz »

fireattack wrote: post #189
gopi11 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complicated because the real choice being made is masked. And when an org develops a habit of pushing people out who can see the moral dimension, it increases the number of decision makers within the org that don't. I know someone who resigned for similar Moral Reasons when we were working on a project for a foreign country. At the time, I am ashamed to say, lot of people laughed and attacked him for the reasons…

I agree with your point but it's not what I'm talking about. I was trying to say that from my (together with some other Chinese people's) perspective, it is "more moral" to re-enter China because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better by giving a significant better search service. I don't see it as a way to help our gov. to suppress us. Quite the opposite, actually. Again, I respect our ideality or valu…

> ... because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better...

This was the idea years ago when we allowed it enter WTO. We were wrong on that. Now we are debating whether we should allow China export censorship?!

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#242

Post by piva00 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #232
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google had their own version of the Facebook's opt-in but highly-invasive research app, but only for people who were over 18 (at least as of the past couple years). This equivocation is a little ridiculous imho. Google's app was literally a tracking app by its very claim, there was no sense of deception or bait-and-switch.

Same with Facebook's app. I legitimately think the outrage over this was overblown (and I said as much at the time [1]), but I can see the other side of it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19031055

Onavo didn't disclose that and then FB Research went targeting teenagers.

Doesn't that feel like it deserved more backlash?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#243

Post by omouse »

yorwba wrote: post #69
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is blind optimism in the face of hard facts. If Google wants to play in China, they will have to bend to the whims of the CCP. No amount of employee foot-dragging will change that fact. > For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself. This is one the arguments that got trotted out by Google employees last time Dragonfly made headlines. The CCP is put…

They will have to bend, no doubt, but if they bend even slightly less than everyone else, that's still a win.

You're right, it will be peace for our time if they bend slightly less: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#244

Post by bopbop »

ladzoppelin wrote: post #125
o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

All people want from life is free meals and video games?

Bread and circuses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#245

Post by ionised »

kortilla wrote: post #161
scarmig wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody forced Google to be a public company This is the relevant part. As soon as you're public, it inevitably introduces strong pressures to pursue profit no matter its cost, as it decouples the negative social externalities corporate actions can cause from the profit made from those actions.

No it doesn’t. There is no threat to google given that the majority voting control is held amongst the founders. Same for Facebook. There is no risk of a hostile takeover or being voted out by public shareholders.

> So we should be blaming Brin and Page for this directly?

I'm totally fine with that.

I'd add Schmidt into the mix too. He's had the biggest had in turning Google into what it is.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#246

Post by ionised »

mruts wrote: post #99

I don’t think I would want to develop a censored search engine (though I’d certainly reconsider for enough money), nor do I think it’s “right” (whatever that means), but I still think that in the intetests of its shareholders, it has a moral and fiscal obligation to make as much money as possible, in perpuitity. I think this implies that Google should go into China. It’s unlikely that Google would make less net profi…

> it has a moral and fiscal obligation to make as much money as possible, in perpuitity.

This is simply untrue.

Also a 'moral obligation to make as much money as possible' is fucking hilarious.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#247

Post by robbrit »

omouse wrote: post #240
robbrit wrote: post #4

I think what will end up happening is Google employees will just self-sort until there aren't enough people left in the company to oppose projects like this. People who are strongly opposed on moral grounds will leave, further strengthening management's choices. While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market. I doubt the employee protests wil…

> further strengthening management's choices I think people are forgetting that each of those Google (former) employees have shares and are also shareholders and shareholders will start to get pissed when management is screwing up and will call for a new CEO or new execs or a new board to be put into place that will get Google back on track: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/16/technology/tech-workers-c... > I doubt th…

> each of those Google (former) employees have shares

They have class C shares, which do not have any voting rights. Shareholders without voting rights have absolutely no power to influence policy.

> If they lose more employees it can be argued that they're ignoring their fiduciary duty to the shareholders by tarnishing the brand of Google which makes hiring more difficult which leads to less profits.

You're making a lot of jumps of logic here so I'll split things up:

> If they lose more employees

They're not bleeding employees so quickly that it will cause a problem, the overwhelming majority of Googlers will not leave over this. There's just a few of them, enough to make headlines but not enough to cause any real issue.

> tarnishing the brand of Google

They'd have to tarnish it a lot to get people to stop wanting to work for Google. Even with the latest headlines and controversies, it's still one of the best paying companies out there with awesome benefits, interesting work, and prestigious status. Even employees who are uncomfortable with some of the choices the company is making will think twice before giving all that up.

> which leads to less profits

In the long run this might be true. I'll use the counter-example of Microsoft though: they were the demon for decades and are still one of the most valuable companies in the world. If a tarnished brand for employees guaranteed less profits, they would have died a long time ago.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#248

Post by [deleted] »

piva00 wrote: post #242
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with Facebook's app. I legitimately think the outrage over this was overblown (and I said as much at the time [1]), but I can see the other side of it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19031055

Onavo didn't disclose that and then FB Research went targeting teenagers. Doesn't that feel like it deserved more backlash?

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#249

Post by thisisweirdok »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #131
thisisweirdok wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone's using that excuse to justify working for Google, I think they're just saying that a small number of people quitting Google isn't nearly enough to stop them. Google employs at least 20k engineers. I'd be shocked if 100 quit over this news. Google could be murdering kittens to cool servers with their blood and you could probably find enough competent engineers to keep 10 Google's fully staffed. T…

An infinite number of people working for Google cannot stop me from not working for them. Which makes no difference to them and all the difference to me. Everybody dies anyway, nobody is remembered, or gets to keep anything; we can build what we want, end result is the same. The only brief moment of reality is our experience of the universe and the kind of life we lead, and if what you claim true for "the vast majori…

I agree with you. I wouldn't work there. All I'm saying is that people aren't making as big a deal of a deal as they should be if they want it to change.

I'm also saying that people who are saying this will hurt Google or make it hard for them to hire new people are flat-out wrong.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#250

Post by echevil »

raxxorrax wrote: post #214
echevil wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a good example though. Many Chinese see the current Taiwan government as a failure and use it as an argument that China should NOT adopt western democracy

That is surprising since Taiwan eclipsed China in technological development and its GPD per capita is over 5x larger than Chinas. edit: despite economic pressure from China. But why should they have a realistic impression if information is controlled?

Because Taiwan was much more prosperous in the last few decades of last century, before Taiwan fully embraced western democracy and started having two ruling parties. Now, however, with Taiwan's economy/average wage being almost stagnant for almost twenty years, and the huge mess in the Taiwan politics, it is hard to see anything good came out of "democracy".

> But why should they have a realistic impression if information is controlled?

They may not know Taiwan well enough, but on average they know it much better than westerners.

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