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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#61

Post by fucking_tragedy »

yorwba wrote: post #46
robbrit wrote: post #4

I think what will end up happening is Google employees will just self-sort until there aren't enough people left in the company to oppose projects like this. People who are strongly opposed on moral grounds will leave, further strengthening management's choices. While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market. I doubt the employee protests wil…

For that reason, Googlers who oppose these kinds of projects should enthusiastically sign up to work on them, so they can have a chance at influencing the outcome. It may feel like the morally superior choice to avoid getting involved, but it just means that the dirty work is done by someone who doesn't care. For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself.…

This is blind optimism in the face of hard facts.

If Google wants to play in China, they will have to bend to the whims of the CCP. No amount of employee foot-dragging will change that fact.

> For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself.

This is one the arguments that got trotted out by Google employees last time Dragonfly made headlines. The CCP is putting people in concentration camps[1]. Dragonfly would help them do that better.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#62

Post by stri8ed »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #56
chivas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering which part of dragonfly makes you so unhappy. Is it the censorship itself or the censorship without telling user about it?

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#63

Post by nostrademons »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #44
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty challenging for a multinational corporation operating in a globalized world. The issue here is that Google is trying to produce a product that conforms to Chinese laws for doing business in China. These laws are deeply offensive and immoral to many people in Google's largely-American workforce. Trying to create a moral compass that multinational corporations can live by requires creating laws that appl…

American companies have to follow American laws. If those laws are incompatible with China's then too bad, those companies can't make money in those exact ways. There's no need to fearmonger about a non-existant world government.

That gets complicated too. The way multinationals are usually setup - particularly with incompatible jurisdictions like US + China - is for a new company to be formed in the country they want to do business in, but with shares wholly owned by the parent. (In the case of China, they often need to partner with a domestic Chinese company that owns some of the shares - this is a sticking point in US/China trade relations, because it's commonly a front for industrial espionage.) Google China is not an American company; it is a Chinese company, headquartered in Beijing, that is partially owned by Google, which itself is owned by Alphabet.

If you want to block cross-border capital flows, you're looking at a lot of collateral damage. Apple, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Nike, McDonald's, KFC, Altria (Phillip Morris), and many others would lose > 50% of their revenue if they could not do business through international subsidiaries that operate according to the laws of the country that they do business in. That's a lot of American jobs lost and a lot of underfunded pension plans.

The problem with a lot of "too bad - just close the borders and have American companies build things in America for Americans" is that it ignores that the 1950s utopia they want to go back to was itself built on globalization. America was the engine of the Marshall Plan, and basically rebuilt the world after WW2. That allowed Americans of the 50s-80s to enjoy standards of living well above what the domestic economy would support. If we actually wanted to shut ourselves off from the world, the resulting economy would likely look a lot more like the America of the 1850s (before steamships made crossing the ocean a routine occurrence) or the North Korea/Cuba/Iran of today (as examples of other countries that have isolated themselves from the world economy).

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#64

Post by math_and_stuff »

stri8ed wrote: post #62
math_and_stuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

My primary motivation is fighting these types of capitulations becoming precedents. If an American tech company will willfully aid the CCP in preventing information on human rights from spreading and build tools for a nationwide dragnet, what would they ever stand up for?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#65

Post by whoisjuan »

karim wrote: post #14
whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

> I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voice their concerns while looking the other way when tweet from their Chinese made iPhones, and write dissenting articles in their Chinese made computers. I don't get it — following your logic people shouldn't be protesting anything China-related because they're using chines…

I agree with you. My comment is about those who put these issues at the center of high-profile debates and seem to demonize individuals and organizations without looking at how their actions contribute to the issue.

By no means, I'm trying to say that you can't regret an issue without indirectly being part of a system that aggravates the same issue. I think nobody can escape this.

But it's different when you want to raise someone or something to a certain moral standard without understanding how fungible is that particular moral standard.

Sometimes people are just wasting their energy on things that are only an issue by their standards and not by the standards of the people who are ultimately affected by the issue itself (in this case the Chinese people).

I would like to see Google employees object with the same energy, things like Google unhinged data collection practices.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#66

Post by yvsong »

geofft wrote: post #28
supernova87a wrote: post #23

Google invited these long-term problems onto itself (and so did many other startups) by marketing a culture aside from their technology that got people to join them. "Do good" they said, which invited people to judge them and decide to work there based on whether they continued doing good. Compare to other companies that were not so "hot" that just promised some less fulfilling employment, but no strong moral or glob…

A counterpoint: Google believed they could attract better engineers (which can be explained either as genuinely more skilled people, who have more ability to choose where they work, or simply more passionate people) with the "Don't be evil" policy. Oracle existed all along. Google wanted to not be Oracle. Now, Google has decided they want contracts like they're Oracle and they want staff like they're not Oracle. They…

Google's motto "Don't be evil" is not rigorous. Huawei claims something similar recently. The problem is who defines what's good or evil? Every group of people think they are noble, and the enemies are evil.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#67

Post by PavlovsCat »

jimmy1 wrote: post #30
math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

> but I don't understand your defeatism. > I publicly resigned from Google Because for every one that resigned, there are most likely hundreds that stay. I do admire your courage and willing to take a stand. In the face of an oppressive government like China I hope I would have the courage to do the same.

I for one refrain from what I consider evil for my own sake, not for the sake of whoever might perpetrate it instead of me. And I also think it's a misconception that being complicit with evil is safer than resisting it -- the instant gratification may be higher, but that is still invisibly small vs. the long tail of not giving in. I'd be too afraid to throw away what little innocence I may have, for nothing substantial in return. I'm not being idealistic at all, I simply cling to the solid ground I am on, and it's actually kinda easy to defend that against people who are on sand and their weapons made of smoke. Only I could make myself lose what I "have", just like I can't "give" it to anyone else. For me that's not the brave choice, it's the safer one.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#68

Post by Veelox »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

I still don't get what logic is used to arrive at the conclusion that Google deploying search in China should be stopped. Everyone I have seen simply assumes it.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#69

Post by yorwba »

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #61
yorwba wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that reason, Googlers who oppose these kinds of projects should enthusiastically sign up to work on them, so they can have a chance at influencing the outcome. It may feel like the morally superior choice to avoid getting involved, but it just means that the dirty work is done by someone who doesn't care. For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself.…

This is blind optimism in the face of hard facts. If Google wants to play in China, they will have to bend to the whims of the CCP. No amount of employee foot-dragging will change that fact. > For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself. This is one the arguments that got trotted out by Google employees last time Dragonfly made headlines. The CCP is put…

They will have to bend, no doubt, but if they bend even slightly less than everyone else, that's still a win.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#70

Post by prepend »

stri8ed wrote: post #62
math_and_stuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?”

“Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?”

Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a bomb company, but I’m not trying to shut down Lockheed Martin.

There’s many different moral systems. Some people are trying to not make things worse. Others are doing different things. It’s ok that there are gradations.

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