Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#51

Post by euske » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:31 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Yeah, I think this is how a company achieves anything nefarious. Sensational media and people are fickle; they consume a few clickbaity articles and then forget them. Meanwhile, companies keep pursuing the goal. Again, their motto has been Keep Evil Undetectable, and we have to tell ourselves that this is a long and ongoing battle. But I'd say that democracy has been always a long and ongoing battle: When you stop paying an attention, you lose.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#52

Post by yorwba » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:33 AM UTC

NoodleIncident wrote: post #41

chivas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think censored search engine is bad? All other search engine in China have same censorship but worse quality. Why it's bad to have another censored search engine with higher quality? Or do you want to say you can't have better search engine until the whole censorship is overhauled? If that's the case, why not first stop use oil from Middle East until the war is complete ended there?

The argument is that Google shouldn't build a censored search engine for one authoritarian state, because once it's built, it's easier for other states to ask for the same treatment. China's existing censored search engines are confined to that country, and I would also oppose any adoption of those services in the US. (As a side note: Is it wrong of me to be suspicious of comments on HN that are enthusiastically pro-…

> Is it wrong of me to be suspicious of comments on HN that are enthusiastically pro-China because they have English grammar errors in every sentence? Maybe, but I'm going to do that anyway.

I think it's wrong of you to label someone as "enthusiastically pro-China" for thinking that having access to a censored version of Google would improve the state of the Chinese search engine market (without using VPNs, anyway). That's more of an anti-China position.

If you ignore comments by Chinese people on China (presumably because you suspect them of being government shills?) you're just discounting the opinion of those with actual first-hand experience and an incentive to see things improve.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#53

Post by math_and_stuff » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:37 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #33

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

I completely agree that a paradigm shift is required. Thankfully, it seems we are in the middle of one. There is sustained momentum, from tech workers, the press, congress, human rights orgs, etc. to work together to hold them accountable.

And we are already making huge impacts.

And, if press over the last six months (especially the NYT Rubin expose) is any indicator, Google's management is no longer viewed as benevolent.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#54

Post by sodosopa » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:38 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #35

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

> Google will move forward with expansion into China. Anyone who doesn't believe that is frankly naive. I agree. Google's only care is for profit.

As long as their stock is up, add investors to the list too.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#55

Post by n1231231231234 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:38 AM UTC

hcnews wrote: post #25

jayd16 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While its not necessarily my opinion, the issue is not about working in/with China, its about building a censored search engine.

The funny thing is that Google search engine is already censored in various parts of the world. E.g. 1. Right to be forgotten. 2. DMCA. (differing views on this). 3. Russia (?)

1) is different in quality. possibly 2), too, but I don't know enought about it.

in CH, search engines are state-censored for political reasons - mainly to keep in power a semi-dictatorship.

the right to be forgotten was implemented to protect individual rights. one may or may not agree with such a protection. however, the motivation was not systematic political censorship.

edit: missing word.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#56

Post by math_and_stuff » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:40 AM UTC

chivas wrote: post #31

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I'm wondering which part of dragonfly makes you so unhappy. Is it the censorship itself or the censorship without telling user about it?

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#57

Post by j16sdiz » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:41 AM UTC

NoodleIncident wrote: post #44

nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty challenging for a multinational corporation operating in a globalized world. The issue here is that Google is trying to produce a product that conforms to Chinese laws for doing business in China. These laws are deeply offensive and immoral to many people in Google's largely-American workforce. Trying to create a moral compass that multinational corporations can live by requires creating laws that appl…

American companies have to follow American laws. If those laws are incompatible with China's then too bad, those companies can't make money in those exact ways. There's no need to fearmonger about a non-existant world government.

Except every government is trying to expand their law for internet.

Just see how many American company changed their website for GDPR

Your CEO won't want arrested in Thailand and extradite to China because their company in Europe violated a random law in China.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#58

Post by snek » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:42 AM UTC

I miss Larry :(

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#59

Post by magicalist » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:48 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

> But why should Googlers care? After all, those free meals, pools, video game rooms, and gyms aren't going to pay for themselves

This story is literally about employees uncovering evidence of ongoing work and pressuring execs to stop it by going public with the information.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#60

Post by iliketosleep » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:49 AM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

Taking a moral stand requires resources, and is therefore more of a privilege than a right. Implicit in this argument is that one must choose their battlefront carefully, because it is usually impossible for one person to fight on all fronts at once. One individual might be an exceptional engineer, and to take a moral stand this individual will refuse to work at certain companies. Another individual might be a wealthy investor, and for the same reason refuse to invest in certain companies. Finally, some people may try to avoid buying products from a particular country of origin.

Pressure on countless different fronts from countless different people for the same moral cause can, and often does, lead to change. Hence, it is not hypocritical at all - to the contrary, it is pragmatic and effective. It's simply individuals doing what they can for something they believe in, and most of them know that they cannot win the battle alone. If it's a worthy cause, such people should be encouraged.

To call the individual who takes a stand on one but not all fronts a hypocrite is, ironically enough, a way of discouraging people from taking a stand at all.