Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#211

Post by vore » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

fireattack wrote: post #166

sytelus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time. This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities. As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine. I guess we get…

The Chinese government is uninterested in letting Western companies compete on the same ground as Chinese companies (e.g. any company with a significant market share in China vs their foreign counterparts doing business).

Entering China at the cost of 1) having to hand over personal information wholesale to the Chinese government in compliance with "local laws" (remember not to look at Xinjiang!) and 2) being forced into a losing position against local competitors like Baidu anyway is neither ethically great nor financially prudent.

In any case, Google is acting only in the interest of profit (as a for profit company beholden to shareholders), and painting it as some kind of great privilege for China to be receiving is big-headed on Google's part and a saccharine narrative justifying a purely business decision to make more money.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#212

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #151

PavlovsCat wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An infinite number of people working for Google cannot stop me from not working for them. Which makes no difference to them and all the difference to me. Everybody dies anyway, nobody is remembered, or gets to keep anything; we can build what we want, end result is the same. The only brief moment of reality is our experience of the universe and the kind of life we lead, and if what you claim true for "the vast majori…

You’re missing the point. It’s not about whether or not you can pat yourself on the back on your deathbed for not working for google. The point is that if we want to make a meaningful difference to stop google, it takes more action than inaction. All it takes is for a few good people to do nothing...

It absolutely starts with not being complicit though, and not diminishing a moral decision as being valuable in and of itself.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#213

Post by Zarel » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:39 AM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #200

Aunche wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what whoisjuan meant. The Chinese people who would be "victimized" by Google welcome the new search engine. Presumably, they would choose to use it because they want to. It is not productive to be angry on their behalf.

Given the state of activism and rebellion brewing in China, I am doubtful. From what I've learned about censorship in china in 2019, i am convinced we are on the same side.

I'm Chinese and I can tell you I think Dragonfly will do more good than harm. You can check my comment history if you doubt I'm a real person.

Here's another Chinese person saying the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19308777

I've never, in any of the many comment threads on Dragonfly, found a Chinese person who thinks otherwise.

All my Chinese relatives I've talked to also feel the same way, and from their reports, the majority of Chinese people feel the same way.

You are welcome to disagree, but don't put words in our mouths.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#214

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:42 AM UTC

echevil wrote: post #159

pcwalton wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government. Taiwan is a counterexample.

Not a good example though. Many Chinese see the current Taiwan government as a failure and use it as an argument that China should NOT adopt western democracy

That is surprising since Taiwan eclipsed China in technological development and its GPD per capita is over 5x larger than Chinas.

edit: despite economic pressure from China.

But why should they have a realistic impression if information is controlled?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#215

Post by hrdwdmrbl » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

hrdwdmrbl wrote: post #193

Love it when Americans make decisions for Chinese people and presume to know what they'd want. Maybe try asking them what they want. Or even just think about what you'd want if you lived in China. Living in China, you know your search engine will be censored. But still, wouldn't you want the best censored search engine that you can get?

I should note that I myself am not Chinese either, but I do live there and its not pleasant having to use Bing, etc.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#216

Post by aedron » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #142

o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

> It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more leniency than their competitors, even when they're all guilty of the same crimes. I would posit that Google is given slightly more leniency because their infractions always tend to be slightly less bad. • Google tracks everything, but is ever-so-slightly more transparent than Facebook or Amazon, and the opt out process is ever-so-slightly…

Personally, one of the reasons I have a little more hope for Google is the ownership structure. Larry and Sergei made some very controversial decisions when they went public with Google, in spite of severe pushback from investors, which tallies with my impression (right or wrong), that they are not only pretty reasaonable guys but also able to resist outside pressure, even to their own financial detriment. An example is the Dutch auction IPO, which democratized the offering and in turn put them on the shitlist with the financial industry at the time. The share structure guarantees that Larry and Sergei remain in 100% control of the company and can pretty much do whatever they like. They made that clear in the prospectus, as well as the fact that they had no plan to ever pay dividends, and in turn (paraphrased) see no reason for anybody to buy shares.

I will grant that in recent years I do not see a strong involvement from Larry and Sergei, in the spirit that I expect from them, and Google has been acting mostly like you would expect from any other corporation. And I definitely do not extend my goodwill to Eric Schmidt. But still, Google has vestiges of the srappy startup, moreso than any of the comparable tech behemoths, in my mind.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#217

Post by MRD85 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 11:20 AM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #212

kortilla wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the point. It’s not about whether or not you can pat yourself on the back on your deathbed for not working for google. The point is that if we want to make a meaningful difference to stop google, it takes more action than inaction. All it takes is for a few good people to do nothing...

It absolutely starts with not being complicit though, and not diminishing a moral decision as being valuable in and of itself.

By leaving Google, one of the most powerful tech companies in the world, the engineers are lowering the mean moral compass of the engineering base.

Additionally, leaving a secure, well-paid role in political protest takes a certain amount of privilege. My father left an amazing job in protest over immoral actions and I can assure you that it had huge financial impacts on my life growing up. I respect him for his decision and I like to think I'd make the same one, however, I can understand how people even less fortunate aren't making political choices with their employment.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#218

Post by prepend » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 12:00 PM UTC

TACIXAT wrote: post #113

prepend wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a weird argument when applied to other areas. “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will make the ovens and gas chambers?” “Does it really change anything on the ground? Someone else will assassinate Archduke Ferdinand?” Etc. being morally opposed to something and trying to abstain from supporting it is not the same as campaigning against something’s existence. I wouldn’t work for a…

I think your comparison to building gas chambers is hyperbolic and ridiculous.

[flagged]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#219

Post by C1sc0cat » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 12:18 PM UTC

valker43 wrote: post #201

pcwalton wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government. Taiwan is a counterexample.

It all comes down to economics. The population is OK with the CCP's policies because they brought unprecedented growth. The GDP growth chart since the cultural revolution is really almost hard to believe. The part of the population that's profiting from this development happens to be large enough to lead to a somewhat stable political situation. This is obviously supported by extremely authoritative measures from gov…

And this can happen in a blink of an eye the fall of the berlin wall for example.

And I suspect the fate of Ceausescu must weigh on the minds of the party leaders.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#220

Post by Chico11Kidlet » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 12:27 PM UTC

Did the Author ever determine if the source images came from Drone-based WAMI or Satellite-based WAMI as originally reported? The original article in the intercept noted that the Google e-mails they had obtained showed that it was Satellite-based WAMI - which would sort of be a big deal..... AKA - who needs solar powered High Altitude Long Endurance (HALE) drone planes, blimps or aerostats to deploy Wide Area Persistent Surveillance when you can just put WAMI on Micro-sats that never come down and never blink?