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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#181

Post by scarmig »

kortilla wrote: post #161
scarmig wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody forced Google to be a public company This is the relevant part. As soon as you're public, it inevitably introduces strong pressures to pursue profit no matter its cost, as it decouples the negative social externalities corporate actions can cause from the profit made from those actions.

No it doesn’t. There is no threat to google given that the majority voting control is held amongst the founders. Same for Facebook. There is no risk of a hostile takeover or being voted out by public shareholders.

Shareholders have plenty of ways of impacting corporate direction that fall far short of hostile takeovers. E.g. lawsuits; the very fact that a public company has to provide more information about its finances. There's a reason Ruth Porat was brought on after IPO and not before.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#182

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #177
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

public opinion is an illusion in a world shaped by minority interest groups. It doesn't matter if it's neocons pulling the strings or the neoliberals in power. The outcomes are devastatingly destructive policies to line the pockets of the 1% at the expense of nature and the rest of us. If we remember Occupy Wallstreet and look at how many people have been placed on lists, or how many protesters got hurt, in compariso…

I don’t recall OWS as having any concrete goals or demands. Seems hard to achieve a goal without having defined one.

they did make demands[1][2] many of them such as reducing corporate power, forgive student loans, ...

But the fact that these weren't only ignored but didn't even result in a meaningful discussion is exactly my point.

[1] 10 Demands Being Made By The Wall Street Protesters https://www.businessinsider.com/finally-specific-demands-fro...

[2] PICKET: Occupy Wall Street protesters post manifesto of 'demands' https://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/oct/3/...

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#183

Post by Aunche »

kortilla wrote: post #156
whoisjuan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. My comment is about those who put these issues at the center of high-profile debates and seem to demonize individuals and organizations without looking at how their actions contribute to the issue. By no means, I'm trying to say that you can't regret an issue without indirectly being part of a system that aggravates the same issue. I think nobody can escape this. But it's different when you want to…

>Sometimes people are just wasting their energy on things that are only an issue by their standards and not by the standards of the people who are ultimately affected by the issue itself (in this case the Chinese people). That’s not how morals work. Just because you’re not the victim of human rights abuse doesn’t mean you can’t try to prevent it.

I don't think that's what whoisjuan meant. The Chinese people who would be "victimized" by Google welcome the new search engine. Presumably, they would choose to use it because they want to. It is not productive to be angry on their behalf.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#184

Post by Vinnl »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #142
o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

> It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more leniency than their competitors, even when they're all guilty of the same crimes. I would posit that Google is given slightly more leniency because their infractions always tend to be slightly less bad. • Google tracks everything, but is ever-so-slightly more transparent than Facebook or Amazon, and the opt out process is ever-so-slightly…

That might be the case, but I think for me, the prime thing that sets Google apart from, say, Facebook, is that I don't (or not as much) feel pressured into using their stuff because all my friends do so, but because it's genuinely good.

Which is less annoying for me, but not really the moral high ground for other issues. Still, it influences my view of them.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#185

Post by pertymcpert »

HAL9000Ti wrote: post #96
jayd16 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While its not necessarily my opinion, the issue is not about working in/with China, its about building a censored search engine.

Microsoft has a censored search engine live in China right now, where is the backlash against them?

There's literally dozens of them. Dozens!

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#186

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Everyday to work I pass a huge Bayer building. A very unethical company, but pays excellent and people in masses enter the building each day. If you pay enough, you will always find people working for you whatever you do.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#187

Post by pertymcpert »

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #160
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the CCP allow a foreign company to outcompete one of their own homegrown darlings?

What would it matter if Google is operating within the parameters of the government's censorship rules and generating tax revenue for the government?

It matters a great deal indeed.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#188

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26
o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I know my words aren’t worth much, but this anonymous human on the internet is very proud of you for standing up for what is right.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#189

Post by fireattack »

gopi11 wrote: post #179
fireattack wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse. >Google literally building a blacklist Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.

It's complicated because the real choice being made is masked. And when an org develops a habit of pushing people out who can see the moral dimension, it increases the number of decision makers within the org that don't. I know someone who resigned for similar Moral Reasons when we were working on a project for a foreign country. At the time, I am ashamed to say, lot of people laughed and attacked him for the reasons…

I agree with your point but it's not what I'm talking about.

I was trying to say that from my (together with some other Chinese people's) perspective, it is "more moral" to re-enter China because it helps Chinese people to educate themselves better by giving a significant better search service. I don't see it as a way to help our gov. to suppress us. Quite the opposite, actually.

Again, I respect our ideality or value difference. But I think I should voice my view on it.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#190

Post by valker43 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #142
o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

> It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more leniency than their competitors, even when they're all guilty of the same crimes. I would posit that Google is given slightly more leniency because their infractions always tend to be slightly less bad. • Google tracks everything, but is ever-so-slightly more transparent than Facebook or Amazon, and the opt out process is ever-so-slightly…

This is relevant. But Google is also held to a higher standard. Not necessarily by the user base at large, but by the (tech) media. When I saw articles describing Amazons and Microsofts continued support for military and government contracts (Hololens, Pentagon Cloud contract, Jeff Bezos tweets, GovCloud) there is some push back in the comments. But many commenters were actually praising their steadfast commitment of "not giving in to public pressure", and "if they don't do it, China will win". In that way, they kind of got away with it and Google is now at competitive disadvantage. It's weird, because I don't believe MS or AMZN's personell is any more fine with it than Google's is.

Anyway. I can't say I'm surprised by this. I'm just hoping we manage to overcome nationalistic behavior in time. Global problems (AI regulation, climate change, human augmentation) will require global cooperation on a level that will allow no self-serving behavior. And unfortunately evolution has ill prepared us for this.

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