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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#171

Post by dandare »

whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

> ...to do something in China

They are not doing "something", they are building an oppression machine.

Your comparison between consuming Chinese goods and actively aiding the oppressing system is a false equivalence fallacy.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#172

Post by crakenzak »

throwaway6834 wrote: post #143
geuszb wrote: post #128

> [Sundar Pichai views] the censorship as a worthwhile trade-off to gain access to the country’s more than 800 million internet users Citation needed. Alternatively, Google's mission of "organizing the world's information" isn't quite complete if it continues not serving China. Alternatively still, the real danger is not lost opportunity, but the emergence of a strong Chinese ecosystem (from network equipment all the…

Sundar has as much vision as a blindfolded mole. He is after the money, plain and simple. Source: work at google, for ~8 years

Elaborate? He's shown to be a solid leader with the consistent investments into AI and other products etc...

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#173

Post by sevilo »

What a joke, Google as a company (and its employees) are massive hypocrites who criticizes China for its censorship and silencing speeches and free thoughts, then they themselves silence and punish employees for not aligning with THEIR opinion and political views on things. Let's not forget the time Google fired the employee for having a different view on diversity.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#174

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

idrios wrote: post #40
jimmy1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I don't understand your defeatism. > I publicly resigned from Google Because for every one that resigned, there are most likely hundreds that stay. I do admire your courage and willing to take a stand. In the face of an oppressive government like China I hope I would have the courage to do the same.

Possibly, but American culture can actually be very good at taking collective action. In fact it can be so effective that often the way for special interest groups to push an agenda is to sway public opinion about a topic.

public opinion is an illusion in a world shaped by minority interest groups. It doesn't matter if it's neocons pulling the strings or the neoliberals in power. The outcomes are devastatingly destructive policies to line the pockets of the 1% at the expense of nature and the rest of us.

If we remember Occupy Wallstreet and look at how many people have been placed on lists, or how many protesters got hurt, in comparison with what the movement achieved, then it's proof that leaflet-campaigns achieve nothing. The bankers are still not held accountable a decade later and continue to collect fat bonuses all around the world. Peaceful protests aren't the solution. Anyone who reads history knows peaceful discourse has never triggered change when it mattered.

Peaceful protests are just a lot of noise. Ranting on facebook or twitter unfortunately solves nothing. Real action is painful and people (often millions) die. That's the only time when change happened in the past. Denying this is wishful thinking (at best) and akin to white-washing history (at worst).

"War on the planet" is happening as we speak. Yet all people do is talk while we're getting boiled like proverbial frogs. We rather engage in wishful thinking that tech / science (our new substitute religions) will solve these problems (what else to tell kids in their 20ies today?). The reality on how change can happen is bleaker. A whole spectrum of options are available - but none of them are peaceful. It essentially involves getting rid of at least 2/3 of the global population to give the planet a chance of recovery from humanities crimes against the planet.

With the compounded damage from climate change and global dimming, even if the human population is reduced to 10K surviving individuals, it's still no guarantee that the planet survives in that case.

So leaflet campaigns and peaceful discourse are laughable considering that all humans do in the face of these terrors is to engage in identity politics and fight for individual "rights" instead of talking about responsibilities.

EDIT: clarity/typos

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#175

Post by C1sc0cat »

KorematsuFred wrote: post #136

G! employees opposition to Dragonfly is nothing but veiled colonial white man's burden idea rebooted. For most westerners the notion that other countries might have different systems, different values and yet not be savages or evil is hard to digest. The same individuals would happily bend over and grease up when EU comes with idiotic Quxotian regulations, or when Congress passes stupid bills but somehow the idea tha…

So your saying Racism Human rights abuses are ok if your not white - is that not racist in its self.

You cant rightly criticise the "west" for colonial abuses and then turn round and say oh but when we do it its different.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#176

Post by kkarakk »

chrischen wrote: post #147
whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

We are morally objecting on behalf of the People of the People's Republic of China, who are too stupid/incapable to object for themselves.

If you get sent to a gulag/executing for objecting i'd say you're incapable of objecting

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#177

Post by aaronbrethorst »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #174
idrios wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, but American culture can actually be very good at taking collective action. In fact it can be so effective that often the way for special interest groups to push an agenda is to sway public opinion about a topic.

public opinion is an illusion in a world shaped by minority interest groups. It doesn't matter if it's neocons pulling the strings or the neoliberals in power. The outcomes are devastatingly destructive policies to line the pockets of the 1% at the expense of nature and the rest of us. If we remember Occupy Wallstreet and look at how many people have been placed on lists, or how many protesters got hurt, in compariso…

I don’t recall OWS as having any concrete goals or demands. Seems hard to achieve a goal without having defined one.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#178

Post by kkarakk »

KorematsuFred wrote: post #136

G! employees opposition to Dragonfly is nothing but veiled colonial white man's burden idea rebooted. For most westerners the notion that other countries might have different systems, different values and yet not be savages or evil is hard to digest. The same individuals would happily bend over and grease up when EU comes with idiotic Quxotian regulations, or when Congress passes stupid bills but somehow the idea tha…

My one month old account friend, using logical fallacies isn't going to convert anyone to your cause. whataboutisms, blaming cultural insensitivity etc DOES NOT WORK for a country that blatantly tells it's citizens "either support the party line or die" like china.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#179

Post by gopi11 »

fireattack wrote: post #162
math_and_stuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse. >Google literally building a blacklist Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.

It's complicated because the real choice being made is masked.

And when an org develops a habit of pushing people out who can see the moral dimension, it increases the number of decision makers within the org that don't.

I know someone who resigned for similar Moral Reasons when we were working on a project for a foreign country. At the time, I am ashamed to say, lot of people laughed and attacked him for the reasons being "superficial".

Exec Mgmt's position was - we are doing things conforming to the "local laws". The thing was, local laws existed in name only. You could get away with whatever you wanted by bribing people or helping the wrong kind of people. And once you have managers in place who have no problem with that what do you think happens?

Fast forward 15 years and we saw massive fines and few people went to jail. This plays out constantly in companies.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#180

Post by fucking_tragedy »

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #160
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the CCP allow a foreign company to outcompete one of their own homegrown darlings?

What would it matter if Google is operating within the parameters of the government's censorship rules and generating tax revenue for the government?

You're asking this question in an era where we've gotten into a trade war with China?

Because the CCP and its members are heavily invested in quite literally everything that isn't a foreignly owned business operating in China.

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