Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#91

Post by 908087 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #80

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

The only thing Google has any interest in minimizing in China is the percentage of the search/ad market outside of their control.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#92

Post by ajxs » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I wholeheartedly salute you. The individual willing to stand up for a principle at great personal expense is the kind of hero the world needs more of. While I admire your resolve, I can't help but feel pessimistic about the cause. My view formed by my own personal experience is that the average consumer is not even remotely interested in understanding the ethical implications of Google's various business practices, let alone taking an informed moral stance and adjusting their behaviour on its basis. Dragonfly is only the tip of the iceberg for me when it comes to Google's unethical behaviour, I've made a concerted effort to avoid allowing Google to earn money from my use of their products. Unfortunately, the masses are miles away from even being concerned about their own personal privacy, let alone being concerned over foreign tyranny. They'll continue using Google services, and google will be able to do largely as it wishes. Also, I'm stumped trying to think of an example of where a nation-state rectified their unethical behaviour on a moral basis alone. Picketing the Chinese government will not change things, nor will Google refusing to do business with them, unfortunately. We should still boycott companies who support such tyranny however.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#93

Post by api » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

If we have gotten to the point where people are unwilling to trade a six figure job with free sushi for a six figure job without free sushi to stand up for what is right, we have bigger problems.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#94

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

appsonify wrote: post #85

I don't get the pushback....you signed up to work for a for-profit publicly traded corporation. You received your benefits and compensation. Now suddenly, you have a problem with your employer trying to do its job which is continue to please wall street that impacts the share price? it's kinda like that pushback from MS that was puzzling too....whether you like it or not, the very work you are doing in university to…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#95

Post by ajxs » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

math_and_stuff wrote: post #53

o10449366 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

I completely agree that a paradigm shift is required. Thankfully, it seems we are in the middle of one. There is sustained momentum, from tech workers, the press, congress, human rights orgs, etc. to work together to hold them accountable. And we are already making huge impacts. And, if press over the last six months (especially the NYT Rubin expose) is any indicator, Google's management is no longer viewed as benevo…

I would contend that the naïveté that would allow someone to have ever seen Google's management as benevolent is that same naïveté that will ultimately allow these practices to continue with impunity.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#96

Post by HAL9000Ti » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:54 AM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #15

whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

While its not necessarily my opinion, the issue is not about working in/with China, its about building a censored search engine.

Microsoft has a censored search engine live in China right now, where is the backlash against them?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#97

Post by math_and_stuff » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:57 AM UTC

ajxs wrote: post #92

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I wholeheartedly salute you. The individual willing to stand up for a principle at great personal expense is the kind of hero the world needs more of. While I admire your resolve, I can't help but feel pessimistic about the cause. My view formed by my own personal experience is that the average consumer is not even remotely interested in understanding the ethical implications of Google's various business practices, l…

There are many different fronts to wage this fight on; changing consumer behavior is only one of them. Getting the project halted is important in its own right for the reason that it helps prevent the normalization of American tech companies actively aiding political oppression under the guise of abiding by 'local laws and regulations'.

As I stated in a few comments down below: if we let American tech companies build custom tools to enable authoritarian governments in their political oppression, how could we possibly think they would stand up to protect something actually controversial, like a protester or a labor organizer?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#98

Post by g9yuayon » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

Just because you don't like be censored, you'd rather deprive every Chinese's access to information of much much better quality. Yes, a few percent of searches will be censored, but the other 90+% of them are still miles better than Baidu's. Yet the righteous Google employees rather let people die of misinformation provided by Baidu(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wei_Zexi). They'd rather see event like this happen everyday in China: https://www.ft.com/content/9be0b974-10e9-11e6-bb40-c30e3bfcf.... They'd rather let ordinary people comb through pages of thinly disguised ads to get to truly useful pages. They'd rather let good people be bombarded with false information by Baidu. They'd rather deny billions of people's access to vast number of educational videos on Youtube. Yeah, right, this is some people's version of justice.

Yup, political ideal certainly is more important than the quality life of billions of real, ordinary people.

What a bunch of hypocrites.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#99

Post by mruts » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:05 AM UTC

I don’t think I would want to develop a censored search engine (though I’d certainly reconsider for enough money), nor do I think it’s “right” (whatever that means), but I still think that in the intetests of its shareholders, it has a moral and fiscal obligation to make as much money as possible, in perpuitity. I think this implies that Google should go into China. It’s unlikely that Google would make less net profit after entering China, the blowback isn’t impacting financials, and therefore, it’s probably the right decision to move into China.

Personally, I think censorship (all censorship, not just political) is wrong, but if I was the CEO of Google I would be forced to either resign or go into China. And since I follow the money, I probably wouldn’t resign.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#100

Post by curt15 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 3:06 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #80

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

> If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently

You push back against the Party in China, you're out of business. It is common knowledge that being in good terms with party officials is a prerequisite for any really successful company in China.