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Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

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Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#241

Post by rcba »

Mz wrote: post #125
rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

The primary thing men need to do is become more self aware of ways in which they unintentionally exclude women and stop doing that. I am a bit leery of your description of trying to encourage more male peers to do more to make their organizations more diverse. In my experience, trying to be inclusive is generally a poor approach to this problem space. Just work on not being exclusive and the people who want to be the…

Thanks Mz, I agree. What I meant to convey is that I'd love to see all of my male peers genuinely caring about diversity and ensuring that they listen, learn and actively prevent exclusive behaviours/practices within their organisations.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#242

Post by gentleteblor »

exstudent2 wrote: post #227
gentleteblor wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. HN never seems more like Reddit than when we're discussing diversity (gender, race, economic). All the bad habits (mansplaining, straw man arguments etc.) you find elsewhere seem to suddenly rise to the surface. Distressing indeed.

If you want people to take your opinions on gender issues seriously, it's probably best not to use sexist terms like "mansplaining". Edit (for some reason, locked from commenting further): > It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men Um no it doesn't. Possibly the word your looking for is condescending (that's usually what people mean when they say "mansplaining"). I don't see that here though.…

I think my usage of "mansplaining" is pretty ideal here. It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men and which is being practiced right here and now.

The interesting part about "mansplaining" (as it were), is that it's usually slathered in "appeals to reason", logical fallacies, declarations of impartiality etc. etc.

But it's easy to spot.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#243

Post by munchbunny »

fasfdkjlk wrote: post #164
kaitai wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's totally ok to say, "Sorry if it didn't come across that way, but I'm really just interested in talking professionally." Many women have had previous bad experiences and react with that in mind. It's ok to clarify.

I am fasdf. Basically, I had already been so misunderstood, I thought the best approach was to say no more on the matter. Given how seriously she misunderstood one comment, who's to say how she could misinterpret another? (thinking that I was implying she was unattractive, etc.) She would say, as a group of us headed to an event, etc., "XXXX, we're just going to this as friends, I'm not interested in dating you, you…

Yeah that's a tough situation to navigate if you know the other person isn't a rational actor.

In my experience, you have two real options:

1. Add no new information

2. Add new information as unambiguously as possible

I've personally found that dealing with the matter up front and letting the issue burn itself out is the best long term approach to keeping your own sanity.

There's a technique to the second one for making sure your bases are covered professionally since you're in potentially risky territory. Part of it is reporting what's happening to your manager and HR (paper trail). The second part is saying something like "Look, I'm not interested in you, never was. You're not even my friend. You're my co-worker, and we're going to hang out with co-workers. Are you okay with that?"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#244

Post by nickpsecurity »

exstudent2 wrote: post #177
klara_engineer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? B) There are a shortage of labor in tech

> I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great. > There are a short…

I agree the shortage is artificial but the other part makes little sense. The parent comment didn't say save the world. It said understand their needs: also called marketing. From startups to incumbents, they make money by figuring out what people want or need then building it. Needs/wants are incredibly diverse across a diverse set of people. So, shouldn't there be diversity in marketing and product development side of tech to avoid missing good opportunities or getting on paths that were obviously bad (to another group in company).

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#245

Post by jasonlotito »

ben_jones wrote: post #45
houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

Does phrasing exist though to keep if professional? Honest question. My best attempt would probably be: "Hey would you like to go out for coffee professionally?"

"Coffee?"

"Want coffee?"

"Want to get some coffee?"

All these are just fine and work professionally. If someone takes it the wrong way, I'd take it as a warning sign myself.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#246

Post by munchbunny »

microcolonel wrote: post #203
kaitai wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to take it that way, don't interact with humans ever. You do you, my friend. But that's black-and-white illogical thinking. "Once I asked a woman to discuss a tech thing and then she mentioned her boyfriend forever." Who cares? One person had a hangup or a bad experience, and the horrible outcome is that she mentioned her boyfriend a few times. Try again with someone else, guy or gal. Try asking two p…

>the horrible outcome is that she mentioned her boyfriend a few times. You're missing the point. The horrible outcome is that she will forever hold the irrational concern that you're hitting on her. It will colour everything you say or do.

I think he/she got the point, but just doesn't see it as a big deal. I don't either, though I can understand the hesitation.

The parent poster's point is that you really can't let that bother you, and that in situations like these a thicker skin for awkwardness pared with straightforward but polite communication will serve you better in the long run.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#247

Post by RodericDay »

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #238
208Gi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a male that worked with a feminist group about a decade ago. What I learned is that there are spaces/initiatives where men are welcome and, ones where they are not. As in any human relationship - respect of boundaries is key. Like alaithea said, if you're not welcome in one space - you may be in another. You could also start your own initiative but, remember that top down decision making in the name of helping a…

Imagine men saying to women "you are not welcome here" in any context except a bathroom and you begin to see the problem.

I'm just baffled by this comment. You seem to mean as in "these women are setting a double standard, see!". As in, the cure these women are proposing is just more of the disease.

However, it implies you think that the women told "you are not welcome here" is currently a solved problem, a thing of the past, and that they don't actually face any scenarios were they are told "you are not welcome here". Or, at the very least, that there are more "girls clubs" than "boys clubs", so that you'd have to imagine the girls clubs as boys clubs to "see the problem".

There are many, many more de-facto boys clubs than girls clubs, and they usually afford much higher status in society.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#248

Post by keyboardhitter »

exstudent2 wrote: post #207
Chinjut wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. So many of these "women in tech" discussions are thiny veiled power plays to take economic and decision making power away from developers. In the past few years we've seen feminists call for Linus Torvalds' head, attacks on the _concept_ of meritocracy, codes of conduct forced down many open source project's throats,…

> At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self motivation.

I think the narrative is more focused on women being treated differently (whether that is intentional or not) in existing social / work settings in the industry. I did not get the impression this article was referring to learning, but perhaps I missed those points.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#249

Post by [deleted] »

fasdf wrote: post #130
houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

This did happen to me once. I asked someone to a general get-to-know-you coffee and she spent the next two years mentioning her boyfriend to me and even mentioning a couple of times that she liked me as a friend but didn't want to date me. I thought it best not to mention that my interest in dating her was equally low.

[deleted]

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#250

Post by kaybe »

debacle wrote: post #212
user5994461 wrote: post #97

The solution to all gender problems: Actively ignore all topics and articles with "woman" or "female" in the title. People are who they are and go where they want. Tech is no exception. When one walks into a car garage, one doesn't make a fuss about mechanics being all men. When one walks into a kindergarden, one doesn't make a fuss about teachers being all women.

I encountered this just yesterday. Interviewed a lovely woman with a gender neutral name and a fantastic resume that I assumed was a man before getting on the phone with her. She turned out to be just as good as she looked on paper, and I'm certainly looking forward to hiring her. I feel like gender only matters to the kind of people that gender matters to (tautologies are cool).

It would be nice if implicit biases and subconscious prejudices just went away if we started to ignore them.
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