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Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

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Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#211

Post by clifanatic »

andreasklinger wrote: post #55
tomc1985 wrote: post #38

The more attention you draw on diversity, the less diversity you receive. Diversity is supposed to be impartial and tolerant, yet it seems the prescribed approach is to carve out separate "spaces" for different feelings and situations. How is this building bridges in the so-called "gender divide"? True diversity is complete and utter impartiality. Why are we focusing on all these useless, pretty, inspirational soluti…

Being equal doesn't mean being the same. I assume that the intend is to acknowledge differences and educate people about that these arent signals for the actual work. Don't really like to judge/opinonate about this topic b/c i have never been on the negative spectrum of this problem but to reply to your point and why my above comment relates to it. The sexist thoughts imo in the end come from the fact that we aren't…

> i have never been on the negative spectrum of this problem

To the extent that underrepresentation of the group that I identify with is a "problem", I think you and I probably both have. Programming as a profession is dominated by Asians, specifically Indians. When I completed my master's degree in computer science at an American university, I was one of only a half-dozen non-Indian citizens in the entire program (and one of only two white men). There were lots of women, but they were all from India. In my professional work as a developer, I've seen the same massive overrepresentation of Indian programmers.

Of course, I don't see this as a "problem" that my fellow, downtrodden white men need "diversity initiatives" to "overcome": Indian people, for whatever reason, just appear to have more interest and motivation in pursuing programming education and careers. The only time it grates on me is when I see somebody from $APPROVED_OPPRESSED_MINORITY_GROUP insisting that not only their group's representation, but specifically their group's representation in comparison to that of white men, is somehow a problem that I brought about.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#212

Post by debacle »

user5994461 wrote: post #97

The solution to all gender problems: Actively ignore all topics and articles with "woman" or "female" in the title. People are who they are and go where they want. Tech is no exception. When one walks into a car garage, one doesn't make a fuss about mechanics being all men. When one walks into a kindergarden, one doesn't make a fuss about teachers being all women.

I encountered this just yesterday. Interviewed a lovely woman with a gender neutral name and a fantastic resume that I assumed was a man before getting on the phone with her. She turned out to be just as good as she looked on paper, and I'm certainly looking forward to hiring her.

I feel like gender only matters to the kind of people that gender matters to (tautologies are cool).

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#213

Post by munchbunny »

ptaipale wrote: post #143
kaitai wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's totally ok to say, "Sorry if it didn't come across that way, but I'm really just interested in talking professionally." Many women have had previous bad experiences and react with that in mind. It's ok to clarify.

Will you be believed when you clarify, that's then another thing...

There will always be people who take things you say or do the wrong way. That just comes with the territory. If you want to be good at your tech job, you won't be able to avoid working with other people in some form, so you might as well make the best of it.

Your best move is to play the game with both hands above the table, not to avoid playing the game at all.

Here's a suggestion for what to say: "Sounds like there's some sort of misunderstanding. I'm not interested in you as anything more than a coworker. We're on the same team and I need to know how to work with you. If you don't want coffee how about we just chat sometime in a meeting room?"

If they're still being weird about it, then it's probably worth discussing with your manager because that other person is probably generally difficult to work with. Also to cover your own ass from the specter of future sexual harassment issues if that's what you're worried about.

If you're just worried about the other person making it weird... I don't mean to dismiss the concern, but there are plenty of weird people out there, and it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#214

Post by rcba »

cynoclast wrote: post #196
rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

I've not been convinced that 'the gender diversity problem' is a problem. The only 'solution' I see is to force women who don't want to work in tech to work in tech, but since I believe in female agency - and that women have chosen something other than tech to do with their lives - that too would be wrong.

I'd like to clarify what you mean. Do you believe that the tech sector is actually diverse and there are no underrepresented groups, or are you saying you don't think the lack of diversity is harmful?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#215

Post by 20yrs_no_equity »

FT_intern wrote: post #92
throwanem wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, man. How many middle-aged white guys, or white guys, or just guys , have you seen hounded out of our industry by death threats and rape threats? I despise identity politics, but I kind of think you have to be trying pretty hard not to see that there's a problem here.

How many women have? If there are any, it most likely has to do with their political activism instead of their gender.

I once had a twitter handle that whose gender wasn't obvious, leading to people thinking I'm a guy. I used that handle to defend the creator of redis when he was being wrongly convicted of being sexist.

As a result, I did get a great many rape threats and violence threats because they thought I was female -- form people whose identities were not hidden at all, in fact (eg: CTOs of startups in SV with more than $40M in venture capital behind them were threatening me with rape).

These were the "feminists" threatening a perceived female for defending a male, who was not being sexist, but who was the current target of 5 minutes of hate.

Given the amount of harassment anti-gamergate people have engaged in, and the fact that every single thing they claim gamer gate does, they are doing (while I've not really seen gamer gate do it) and the rape threats I got... I think the harassers are the SJWs.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#216

Post by clifanatic »

crapolasplatter wrote: post #84
crapolasplatter wrote: post #54

“Ask a Female Engineer” Why leave other important engineering characteristics out? Are you fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black? I really don't see the importance of sex in relations to engineering. Nor understand the desire to get more fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white, black , male or females involved in engineering.

For those that are down voting, care to expand on why? Or perhaps explain why the following characteristics are irrelevant or less important when it comes to engineering: fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black?

> For those that are down voting, care to expand on why?

Because you're challenging the feminist manifesto.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#217

Post by nickpsecurity »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #124
grace_engineer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, I am Grace. Please include women in the workplace. Talk to us. Don't omit us. If you aren't sure if it's HR appropriate to talk to women at your workplace please check with your HR team. I hope your HR team will encourage you to talk to women and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, I hope your HR team will encourage you to ask if there’s an…

I have a lot of respect for the concepts discussed here, but as a side note "check with your HR team" is a pretty bad idea in most cases. As it's often said, HR is there to protect the company. Not to help employees. Approaching HR with the question "Is it ok to talk to women?" is going to make that HR employee make a note in your file that you're potentially causing a harassing environment and there's documentation…

I second this. Grace's advice to include women is good. Going to HR is risky. My strategy is to just treat everyone about the same as well as I can. Make sure the pattern is clear in people's minds. Helps if any disputes, esp false claims, make it to HR. I hang out with them, too, if they're alright. I learn from the good ones. Anyway, it has side benefit that they mentally compare their experiences around me with what they hear. Should match.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#218

Post by crapolasplatter »

Chinjut wrote: post #200
crapolasplatter wrote: post #54

“Ask a Female Engineer” Why leave other important engineering characteristics out? Are you fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black? I really don't see the importance of sex in relations to engineering. Nor understand the desire to get more fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white, black , male or females involved in engineering.

I'm short and skinny. (I wouldn't normally describe myself as ugly, but, who knows? I guess that's not up to me to say...). It seems to me there are a ton of short skinny guys in the software engineering industry, so I rarely feel out of place on those particular grounds. If you have a specific question about that experience, though, I'd happily answer it. I have noticed that the paucity of women is undeniable and pe…

"but the environment is definitely experienced differently by many women than for men, in a million small ways, which can add up to big feelings."

absolutely agree, but that goes both ways and can be both positive and negative for both sexes.

A fat, ugly, short male or female engineer will likely have a different experience than a skinny,attractive, male or female engineer.

personally I think looks has more of an impact than sex or even color when it comes to discrimination and no I dont consider myself ugly or fat.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#219

Post by ntaenta »

ue_ wrote: post #146
rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

I really do not mean to be confrontational, as I understand that this is a charged topic on all sides, but I'd like to ask why making tech more diverse (in terms of race or gender) is preferable. My first instinct would be to say that if it's more diverse, women or racial minorities are more likely to come into tech because they might feel more comfortable there. But then we're back at square one: why do we want them…

Simple answer... people of all races and genders are smart and creative, so why limit the pool of talent to a small subset of all people?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#220

Post by RonanTheGrey »

grace_engineer wrote: post #89
exolymph wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this. It's weird to single out women and it's equally weird to not include women. The whole point of these discussions and elaborate rigmaroles is to treat people the same regardless of gender.

Hello, I am Grace. Please include women in the workplace. Talk to us. Don't omit us. If you aren't sure if it's HR appropriate to talk to women at your workplace please check with your HR team. I hope your HR team will encourage you to talk to women and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, I hope your HR team will encourage you to ask if there’s an…

Aside from wives, other elephant in the room: accusations of harassment, sexual or otherwise. So easy to make. I'd be curious to quantify the chilling effect this has on office relations.
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