Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#221

Post by rcba » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:27 PM UTC

wingless wrote: post #182

wpietri wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would talk with some actual women in tech, you would learn that many women choose not to become software engineers (and choose to leave at 2x the rate of men) because it is often a shitty environment for them. You would also learn that plenty of people are working on making a more inclusive industry for reasons that have nothing to do with pushing down their own wages. I'm one of them.

I talk to plenty of actual women in tech. They rarely complain about anything that affects women more than men. And if they do, it usually comes from a die-hard feminist SV hedge fund kid who blows everything out of proportion because of political reasons. So it's equally as shitty for men. Women not choosing to become software engineers or quitting more than men do indicates nothing since there are tons of different…

"Mainly, most women have an easier way out by getting married so they don't have to do any hard work, physically or mentally. How do you think they survive otherwise?"

I'm not sure you actually have spoken to that many women, have you?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#222

Post by rhaps0dy » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #61

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

I think this could be misinterpreted as a setup for a date. I'd think that if some dude asked me and we hadn't had much small talk at the office. At the same time, it isn't horrible advice. It really all depends on the situation and your current 'comfort level' with the person. I mean, if you've been working together some time and have chatted at the office, might not be an issue. It might help to mention that you wa…

Does it work to outright say "It's not a date, I just want to talk to you"? Or does it have the opposite effect and make the askee more wary that the asker may, in fact, take it as a date?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#223

Post by notyourwork » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #61

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

I think this could be misinterpreted as a setup for a date. I'd think that if some dude asked me and we hadn't had much small talk at the office. At the same time, it isn't horrible advice. It really all depends on the situation and your current 'comfort level' with the person. I mean, if you've been working together some time and have chatted at the office, might not be an issue. It might help to mention that you wa…

I think it also depends on where you work. In my company it is very common to get coffee. Team's and groups regularly take coffee breaks or meet for coffee to touch base. I do agree generally though it could be misconstrued.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#224

Post by alasdair_ » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #146

rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

I really do not mean to be confrontational, as I understand that this is a charged topic on all sides, but I'd like to ask why making tech more diverse (in terms of race or gender) is preferable. My first instinct would be to say that if it's more diverse, women or racial minorities are more likely to come into tech because they might feel more comfortable there. But then we're back at square one: why do we want them…

I want to work with the best people. Many of the best people are female. Some of these women don't want to work an an environment where they are the only woman and since they are excellent, they choose to work in places that already have female engineers.

Also, I generally prefer to work in places with a diverse mix of people as well. Given two job opportunities that are roughly equal, I'll choose the more diverse one because it's more interesting.

A while ago, I got an MBA. MBA classes are extremely collaborative and a lot of the learning comes from the other students, rather than the lecturer. Most good schools very deliberately to ensure that the student body is as diverse as possible because otherwise learning is stifled: if ALL the students are investment bankers, then the class doesn't really learn much about other businesses. I see work environments similarly.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#225

Post by gentleteblor » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

Chinjut wrote: post #189

jasoncchild wrote: post #186

Cue defensive comments from male readers...

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

True.

HN never seems more like Reddit than when we're discussing diversity (gender, race, economic). All the bad habits (mansplaining, straw man arguments etc.) you find elsewhere seem to suddenly rise to the surface.

Distressing indeed.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#226

Post by notyourwork » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

grace_engineer wrote: post #89

exolymph wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this. It's weird to single out women and it's equally weird to not include women. The whole point of these discussions and elaborate rigmaroles is to treat people the same regardless of gender.

Hello, I am Grace. Please include women in the workplace. Talk to us. Don't omit us. If you aren't sure if it's HR appropriate to talk to women at your workplace please check with your HR team. I hope your HR team will encourage you to talk to women and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, I hope your HR team will encourage you to ask if there’s an…

> If you aren't sure if it's HR appropriate to talk to women at your workplace please check with your HR team.

In what workplace is it not appropriate to speak to someone else?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#227

Post by exstudent2 » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

gentleteblor wrote: post #225

Chinjut wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

True. HN never seems more like Reddit than when we're discussing diversity (gender, race, economic). All the bad habits (mansplaining, straw man arguments etc.) you find elsewhere seem to suddenly rise to the surface. Distressing indeed.

If you want people to take your opinions on gender issues seriously, it's probably best not to use sexist terms like "mansplaining".

Edit (for some reason, locked from commenting further):

> It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men

Um no it doesn't. Possibly the word your looking for is condescending (that's usually what people mean when they say "mansplaining"). I don't see that here though. This is just a thread with men and women voicing their opinions (very respectfully I might add).

Men are allowed to have thoughts and feelings. It's not right to shame them for it and it's not right to gender an attack of any kind. If someone is being a jerk, call out that individual, don't blame a whole gender.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#228

Post by matt_wulfeck » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #95

grahamburger wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's not misinterpreted by her, it could be misinterpreted by friends / colleagues / SO's if either of you are married or in a serious relationship. Inter-gender relationships are hard :( I'm reminded of this xkcd[0], 'Hooray! we've solved the problem of drama!' [0] https://xkcd.com/592/ EDIT: I should add a bit of context. I am self employed as a contractor, but my 'boss' at my biggest client - the one that…

I agree that things can be misinterpreted, but that's not a reason to avoid relationships with people. It's a reason to keep things clearly communicated. And if people choose to gossip and act like high schoolers, let them. Maybe call them out on it, depending on the nature of your professional/personal relationship this can be easier said than done. But, maybe this is just me, I'm not going to forfeit my good relati…

I'm going to side with GP's motivation. While it would be great if people didn't rumor-monger when they see two coworkers spending time alone, wishing it were different doesn't make it so.

There's a lot at stake. A simple your word against theirs or miscommunication can land you in serious HR trouble. This issue is incredibly sensitive and very charged. Why risk it?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#229

Post by rcba » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

tjic wrote: post #74

rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

> How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem There is, objectively, different representations of different groups in engineering. There is no objective reason to think that this is a "problem". Whether it's a problem, a feature, or just an unimportant fact derives from one's value system...and different value systems are just that: different. To assume that this is a problem -…

Interesting, thanks for the response.

In my opinion, if people from different demographic groups have different opportunities to succeed there is a problem. Everyone should have the same opportunity.

Secondly, what about the data that suggests gender and ethnic diversity has a positive financial/commercial impact on businesses?

E.g http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-...

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#230

Post by generic_user » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

My question is why do feel people should ask you questions as 'Engineers' when you are posing anonymously with no qualifications or specific engineering credentials?

This leads me to the conclusion that this project should be renamed as "Ask a Female". Clearly this is the intention no?

My second question then is why do you think "Ask a Female questions" is an appropriate service for an audience that is concerned with Computing,Technology and related business ventures?

This seems like rather blatant stereotyping on your part. You are making the assumption that your audience are Men that have no Woman around to ask questions.

I have plenty of Woman around to ask questions without your service. And also plenty of engineers who I know the credentials of and trust there judgement whom I can ask technical questions. The thought that I would need some anonymous Woman to answer my random questions about no defined topic in particular is a little creepy.