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India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

reuters.com

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Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#231

Post by sandspar »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #224
sandspar wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm really not claiming anything that requires more than a cursory review of the history of proxy wars. Or, like, talking to someone who lives in a country we've recently proxy warred. The people fighting in the wars we proxied were fighting for a domestic cause. Outside powers then glommed onto that dispute. Nobody thought they were dying for the superpowers' ends; they were fighting a local civil war or rebellion o…

Ok man sounds like you've got the cultural and historical situation under control.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#232

Post by mayama »

alephnerd wrote: post #28
ferguess_k wrote: post #17

I hope this cools down into a propagation war after the initial bombing and shooting. Nationalism served, and every one gets what they want, well, except the dead ones...

Depends on internal politics in Pakistan. The army isn't completely united, and the current COAS of Pakistan (Asim Munir) is much more ideological than the former one (Qamar Javed Bajwa), who he pushed out after Bajwa and Imran Khan demoted Munir from the ISI to a (relatively) lowly Corp Commander. Bajwa was working on normalizing relations with India, but himself got undermined by Imran Khan and separately by Asim M…

It's result of supporting fundamentalist terrorism and supporting infrastructure nationwide. After sufficient growth, the extremist support base started being recruited into lower levels of army and the support grew from there. Going forward, fundamentalist support in Army will continue to grow even in upper levels.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#233

Post by FullGarden_S »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #225
FullGarden_S wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not a Western media channel. Its NDTV https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WLwHK_22pm0

Neither person in this clip claims or admits that Pakistan directed the 22 April terrorist attack.

Why would they? Even the USA never admits their direct involvement straight away so its delusional of you to be expecting something like that. If Pakistan is the kind of nation to confess, peace would have been established long back.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#234

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kumarvvr wrote: post #151
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> India wants peace Not really. There are options for a negotiated peace that involves swapping land, specifically, ceding Muslim-dominant territory to Pakistan and setting borders along rivers. That's anathema in India because there is broad-based antipathy towards Islamabad, historically, and Muslims, recently.

> There are options for a negotiated peace that involves swapping land, specifically, ceding Muslim-dominant territory to Pakistan and setting borders along rivers. Sorry, why would that be done? When Pakistan was split from India, because of the Muslims voting against their own land that they have been living in for centuries, the lines are set and done. Why should India cede more land? Pakistan is on one of the mos…

> When Pakistan was split from India, because of the Muslims voting against their own land that they have been living in for centuries, the lines are set and done

Lines are never "set and done for." We had a short period of global consensus around the unacceptability of taking territory by force. But between the superpowers' proxy wars, America's invasion of Iraq, China's annexation of Tibet and threats on Taiwan, and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that precedent was always tenuous at best and, now, has certainly passed.

> Why should India cede more land?

Because New Delhi expects something of greater value in return. For example, one could see a China-mediated truce trading territory in J&K for settling boundaries in Andra Pradesh and/or a deployment of Chinese troops on anti-terrorist missions in Pakistan.

Nobody is saying India just give land to Pakistan for feelsies. It's engaging in a negotiation where that's on the table.

> Pakistan is on one of the most resource rich, fertile lands in the Indian subcontinent

Geopolitics isn't fair? (Also, India is richer than Pakistan. Both in population and GDP per capital.)

That said, this argument represents the pathos in India. India broadly isn't interested in peace if it comes at the cost of territory. It expresses a preference for certain things above peace.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#235

Post by krainboltgreene »

sofixa wrote: post #219
krainboltgreene wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin is a particularly deranged type of fascist though, much like Bush, who is okay making the poor calculation of a Ukrainian invasion for the benefit of a wartime economy. Even German ambassadors in Ukraine were caught off guard having to leave that night. Modi is a different type of beast, he's a long term political power that doesn't need a wartime economy, and is still establishing his internal power. He's goin…

> Putin is a particularly deranged type of fascist though, much like Bush, who is okay making the poor calculation of a Ukrainian invasion for the benefit of a wartime economy While Putin is undoubtedly deranged, I think his goals with invading had much more to do with delusions of grandeur and trying to rebuild the Russian/Soviet empire than wanting the "benefit" of a "wartime economy". Russia was drastically unprep…

I agree with most of this except maybe the "soviet empire" bit. His recent mentions of it (within the last 3 years) has been about how the fall of the Soviet Union broke up the "historical russian" borders. For Ukraine specifically he compared himself to Russian Czar Peter the Great.

A long time ago he lamented the fall of the Soviet Union which is especially hilarious as he was very likely involved in and vultured on the remains of it's demise.

> Russia was drastically unprepared for a long war

He, much like all of military officials in NATO at the time, assumed it was going to be over after they landed in Kiev.

I also contest that the economy has suffered: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-economy-shows-s...

The only exception is the pipeline, but then who could have expected that the US would sabotage an ally's ability to heat it's citizens? (assuming you ignore the last 100 years of american doctrine)

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#236

Post by JumpCrisscross »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #69
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India calls this a targeted strike so for now at least they don't seem to be messaging a strong stance on expanding the strike.

"Targeted strike" is meaningless PR-speak and the concern wouldn't be India expanding the strike, it would be Pakistan retaliating and then India retaliating to the retaliation and so on until someone's finger is hovering over a big red "LAUNCH" button and the rest of us have to take a keen interest in how much iodine we're consuming. I and a lot of other people have been calling "India and Pakistan get into it again…

> "Targeted strike" is meaningless PR-speak

Uh, no. It meaningful war communication when dealing with states. A belligerent announcing targeted strikes, particularly as retaliation, is hoping to convey that they're avoiding strategic targets and, usually by the time of the announcement, that the shooting is done.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#238

Post by cosmicgadget »

happyopossum wrote: post #143
smt88 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about historical US foreign policy can tell us what the current regime wants or will do.

Good. HN is full of posts about stupid crap the US govt has done in the past.

Don't underestimate the stupidity of this administration. History could pale in comparison.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#239

Post by HideousKojima »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #102
bluefirebrand wrote: post #84

[flagged]

> People said the same sorts of things when Germany suddenly invaded Poland Hell, look at HN on the eve of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. One of the top comments was essentially a dismissal from Kherson edited to an "oh shit."

That's because we'd seen "Russian invasion imminent" every year since the annexation of Crimea. It got to be very boy who cried wolf.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#240

Post by matusp »

ranger207 wrote: post #35
digitalPhonix wrote: post #20

From the article: > Pakistan said India hit three sites with missiles, and a military spokesman told Reuters his country shot down five Indian aircraft, a claim not confirmed by India. That’s a huge loss of aircraft! Are there any corroborating reports or more details about the aircraft/shootdown?

There won't be corroborating reports for months if not years. The public transparency of the Ukrainian battlefield is an anomaly; typically (as in past India-Pakistan incidents) both sides will claim more successes than actually happened and it'll take unbiased parties to figure out what actually happened after both sides release their records. This isn't typically due to malice; it's simply difficult in most cases t…

I think that level of transparency is the new norm. Everybody has mobile phones and you can have a new satelite imaginery every few hours. It's pretty difficult to hide a jet loss, unless it happens at sea.
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